SciPhysicsForums.com

by **FrediFizzx** » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:17 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Sorry you don't understand the physics of a Stern-Gerlach polarizer. But that limit process is probably a pretty close match mathematically as to what is going on.

The Stern-Gerlach experiment is perfectly well understood within quantum mechanics. See https://arxiv.org/abs/1007.2435 "The Stern Gerlach Experiment" by Jeremy Bernstein. Abstract: We present a history and analysis of this experiment.

Sure, but do YOU understand it? Since you are having trouble with the limit process I suspect that you don't understand it.
.

There is a physical process, yes. I understand that just fine! And a good mathematical description of the process can involve a mathematical limit of several kinds. For instance, one might make simple discrete or even finitary models and take a mathematical limit as various parameters tend to infinity.

Or there might be a limit as a time variable approaches a limiting value.

Many such solutions have been published. See for instance Theo Nieuwenhuizen's solution https://phys.org/news/2013-07-physicists-publish-solution-quantum-problem.html. Zurek's "Einselection" is also one. One can go back further still.

Sure, one can make something that is fairly simple more complicated easily enough. When the singlet particles start to be affected by the polarizer action, the probability wave (wavefunction) of the singlet disappears/collapses. I have absolutely no problem with probabilistic wavefunctions disappearing. In reality, the singlet wavefunction is actually being converted into two separate states by the polarizer action.

Then the particle's spin can be up or down coming out of the polarizer depending mostly on the original spin vector direction relative to the direction of the polarizer. It is pretty simple. I say "mostly" because as one can see from the polarizer simulation that there will be a few "borderline" cases where the spin could flip either way up or down.
.

by **gill1109** » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:07 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Sorry you don't understand the physics of a Stern-Gerlach polarizer. But that limit process is probably a pretty close match mathematically as to what is going on.

The Stern-Gerlach experiment is perfectly well understood within quantum mechanics. See https://arxiv.org/abs/1007.2435 "The Stern Gerlach Experiment" by Jeremy Bernstein. Abstract: We present a history and analysis of this experiment.

Sure, but do YOU understand it? Since you are having trouble with the limit process I suspect that you don't understand it.
.

There is a physical process, yes. I understand that just fine! And a good mathematical description of the process can involve a mathematical limit of several kinds. For instance, one might make simple discrete or even finitary models and take a mathematical limit as various parameters tend to infinity.

Or there might be a limit as a time variable approaches a limiting value.

Many such solutions have been published. See for instance Theo Nieuwenhuizen's solution https://phys.org/news/2013-07-physicists-publish-solution-quantum-problem.html. Zurek's "Einselection" is also one. One can go back further still.

by **FrediFizzx** » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:47 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Sorry you don't understand the physics of a Stern-Gerlach polarizer. But that limit process is probably a pretty close match mathematically as to what is going on.

The Stern-Gerlach experiment is perfectly well understood within quantum mechanics. See https://arxiv.org/abs/1007.2435 "The Stern Gerlach Experiment" by Jeremy Bernstein. Abstract: We present a history and analysis of this experiment.

Sure, but do YOU understand it? Since you are having trouble with the limit process I suspect that you don't understand it.
.

by **gill1109** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:17 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:Sorry you don't understand the physics of a Stern-Gerlach polarizer. But that limit process is probably a pretty close match mathematically as to what is going on.

The Stern-Gerlach experiment is perfectly well understood within quantum mechanics. See https://arxiv.org/abs/1007.2435 "The Stern Gerlach Experiment" by Jeremy Bernstein. Abstract: We present a history and analysis of this experiment.

by **FrediFizzx** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:07 pm

Sorry you don't understand the physics of a Stern-Gerlach polarizer. But that limit process is probably a pretty close match mathematically as to what is going on. Play around with the polarizer simulator a bit.

https://phet.colorado.edu/sims/stern-ge ... ch_en.html

You might learn something.
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by **gill1109** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:39 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote: … You don't use $\lim_{x\rightarrow c} x = c$ , so I don't see why you mention it. …

??? Of course we use it.

$x = {\bf s}$ and $c = \text {sgn}({\bf n} \cdot {\bf s}){\bf n}$ so we have

$\lim_{{\bf s} \rightarrow \text {sgn}({\bf n} \cdot {\bf s}){\bf n}} {\bf s} = \text {sgn}({\bf n} \cdot {\bf s}){\bf n} = \pm {\bf n}$

depending on whether the sign function is positive or negative.
.

Seems to me that this "formalism" is just a licence to flip a sign whenever it is needed in order to get the right result. Only people with powerful physics intuition are allowed to do that. Mathematicians should just shut up. Gerhard 't Hooft once followed a mathematics course on integration theory, hoping to learn how to integrate yet more functions than the ones he already could. He was however told that he couldn't integrate functions which he did already know perfectly well how to integrate. He has not had much respect for mathematicians since then.

You call it physics. I call it poetry.

"In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in the case of poetry, it’s the exact opposite!" – Paul Dirac

by **FrediFizzx** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:30 pm

gill1109 wrote: … You don't use $\lim_{x\rightarrow c} x = c$ , so I don't see why you mention it. …

??? Of course we use it.

$x = {\bf s}$ and $c = \text {sgn}({\bf n} \cdot {\bf s}){\bf n}$ so we have

$\lim_{{\bf s} \rightarrow \text {sgn}({\bf n} \cdot {\bf s}){\bf n}} {\bf s} = \text {sgn}({\bf n} \cdot {\bf s}){\bf n} = \pm {\bf n}$

depending on whether the sign function is positive or negative.
.

by **FrediFizzx** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:09 am

gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Joy's mathematical derivations involve using some calculus theorems about limits. But he starts with writing down some formulas which use "illegal" notation. Or to be more kind, undefined notation.

There is nothing illegal or undefined about the notation I have used. Anyone who understands GA knows that the limit operations are equivalent to the divisions by bivectors Fred has used.

In that case, it seems that nobody understands GA apart from you, Fred, and maybe Tom. I really think you guys need to work on helping people understand GA enough to understand your limit operations.
…

??? The limit process has absolutely nothing to do with GA in particular. It is a mathematical description of the PHYSICAL action of the polarizers. It is the same in GA as it is in QM.
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by **Joy Christian** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:01 am

gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Joy's mathematical derivations involve using some calculus theorems about limits. But he starts with writing down some formulas which use "illegal" notation. Or to be more kind, undefined notation.

There is nothing illegal or undefined about the notation I have used. Anyone who understands GA knows that the limit operations are equivalent to the divisions by bivectors Fred has used.

In that case, it seems that nobody understands GA apart from you, Fred, and maybe Tom. I really think you guys need to work on helping people understand GA enough to understand your limit operations.

I kindly suggested that Fred could maybe interpret those formulas as a bit of GA code itself. Start with some s chosen uniformly at random from the sphere, which then moves in little discrete steps simultaneously towards - sign(a cdot s) times a and to + sign(b cdot s) times b.

If you can programme this, then we understand your notation. If you can't, then I'm afraid we never will. I think it can't be done. I'm willing to bet you, it can't be done.

Fred, there is indeed no point whatsoever in continuing with the product calculation. There is no problem there. The formulas are transparent and are easy to reproduce in code, and they generate the singlet correlations. We have all known that for about five years, I think.

We have been trying to teach you some basic GA for the past eight years with no avail. Perhaps it is just not your cup of tea. Isn't it interesting that no one from the GA community has ever complained about my use of GA in the past twelve years, even in an online comment, let alone in a peer-reviewed journal publication? That is because there is nothing to complain about.

***

by **gill1109** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:52 am

Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Joy's mathematical derivations involve using some calculus theorems about limits. But he starts with writing down some formulas which use "illegal" notation. Or to be more kind, undefined notation.

There is nothing illegal or undefined about the notation I have used. Anyone who understands GA knows that the limit operations are equivalent to the divisions by bivectors Fred has used.

In that case, it seems that nobody understands GA apart from you, Fred, and maybe Tom. I really think you guys need to work on helping people understand GA enough to understand your limit operations.

I kindly suggested that Fred could maybe interpret those formulas as a bit of GA code itself. Start with some s chosen uniformly at random from the sphere, which then moves in little discrete steps simultaneously towards - sign(a cdot s) times a and to + sign(b cdot s) times b.

If you can programme this, then we understand your notation. If you can't, then I'm afraid we never will. I think it can't be done. I'm willing to bet you, it can't be done.

Fred, there is indeed no point whatsoever in continuing with the product calculation. There is no problem there. The formulas are transparent and are easy to reproduce in code, and they generate the singlet correlations. We have all known that for about five years, I think. Joy's model is a "moving target" and we now have issues with relatively newly introduced features. Like a bump under a carpet ... you can't make it go away. Get rid of it in one place and it turns up in another. Try to hide it under the sofa, but it is always there somewhere, if you look.

by **FrediFizzx** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:43 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Where did I promise that? Don't make things up.
.

I asked you. You said you would code it. I suppose you didn't understand my question.

But there is progress, now you do understand my question! You can simply say "no" if you don't want to do it / don't know how to do it.

It is obvious that there is no sense for me to continue with this since you are going to refuse to understand it anyways. You saw the sample output. That will have to do it. The product calculation is validated via computer program.
.

… I know that you reproduce the singlet correlations exactly.

OK, good. Then as I said there is no point for me to continue as you agree with the product calculation.
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by **Joy Christian** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:33 am

gill1109 wrote:Joy's mathematical derivations involve using some calculus theorems about limits. But he starts with writing down some formulas which use "illegal" notation. Or to be more kind, undefined notation.

There is nothing illegal or undefined about the notation I have used. Anyone who understands GA knows that the limit operations are equivalent to the divisions by bivectors Fred has used.

***

by **gill1109** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:24 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Where did I promise that? Don't make things up.
.

I asked you. You said you would code it. I suppose you didn't understand my question.

But there is progress, now you do understand my question! You can simply say "no" if you don't want to do it / don't know how to do it.

It is obvious that there is no sense for me to continue with this since you are going to refuse to understand it anyways. You saw the sample output. That will have to do it. The product calculation is validated via computer program.
.

Nobody is interested in the product calculation. I know that you reproduce the singlet correlations exactly. I know exactly how you do it, *after* you have evaluated those two limits.

We have been asking about the limit concept which you use. Joy's mathematical derivations involve using some calculus theorems about limits. But he starts with writing down some formulas which use "illegal" notation. Or to be more kind, undefined notation.

by **FrediFizzx** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:04 am

Here is the output for 2,000 trials.

Code: Select all: Correlations neg cosine Difference -0.999636 -0.999636 0 -0.999209 -0.999209 0 -0.998494 -0.998494 0 -0.997928 -0.997928 0 -0.99716 -0.99716 0 -0.995499 -0.995499 0 -0.994493 -0.994493 0 -0.993795 -0.993795 0 -0.992287 -0.992287 0 -0.992011 -0.992011 0 -0.991293 -0.991293 0 -0.990372 -0.990372 0 -0.989181 -0.989181 0 -0.988348 -0.988348 0 -0.987466 -0.987466 0 -0.986844 -0.986844 0 -0.986135 -0.986135 0 -0.984871 -0.984871 0 -0.983396 -0.983396 0 -0.983201 -0.983201 0 -0.98249 -0.98249 0 -0.982458 -0.982458 0 -0.982257 -0.982257 0 -0.98104 -0.98104 0 -0.980796 -0.980796 0 -0.980081 -0.980081 0 -0.976796 -0.976796 0 -0.974053 -0.974053 0 -0.973911 -0.973911 0 -0.972942 -0.972942 0 -0.97191 -0.97191 0 -0.971406 -0.971406 0 -0.970998 -0.970998 0 -0.970329 -0.970329 0 -0.970252 -0.970252 0 -0.969467 -0.969467 0 -0.969245 -0.969245 0 -0.967542 -0.967542 0 -0.965849 -0.965849 0 -0.963887 -0.963887 0 -0.963784 -0.963784 0 -0.963345 -0.963345 0 -0.958199 -0.958199 0 -0.957994 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0.558965 0 0.561044 0.561044 0 0.561432 0.561432 0 0.561509 0.561509 0 0.561776 0.561776 0 0.563913 0.563913 0 0.564529 0.564529 0 0.565802 0.565802 0 0.567089 0.567089 0 0.568132 0.568132 0 0.568797 0.568797 0 0.568976 0.568976 0 0.569315 0.569315 0 0.569631 0.569631 0 0.572863 0.572863 0 0.573113 0.573113 0 0.573871 0.573871 0 0.575681 0.575681 0 0.577207 0.577207 0 0.577801 0.577801 0 0.578835 0.578835 0 0.579245 0.579245 0 0.583329 0.583329 0 0.584443 0.584443 0 0.586488 0.586488 0 0.58663 0.58663 0 0.586775 0.586775 0 0.587792 0.587792 0 0.589214 0.589214 0 0.589227 0.589227 0 0.589627 0.589627 0 0.59124 0.59124 0 0.591318 0.591318 0 0.591383 0.591383 0 0.592138 0.592138 0 0.592311 0.592311 0 0.594332 0.594332 0 0.595874 0.595874 0 0.59609 0.59609 0 0.596516 0.596516 0 0.596965 0.596965 0 0.597763 0.597763 0 0.59799 0.59799 0 0.598562 0.598562 0 0.598905 0.598905 0 0.59894 0.59894 0 0.599764 0.599764 0 0.600809 0.600809 0 0.603295 0.603295 0 0.603626 0.603626 0 0.604081 0.604081 0 0.604308 0.604308 0 0.606442 0.606442 0 0.60786 0.60786 0 0.610795 0.610795 0 0.614918 0.614918 0 0.615424 0.615424 0 0.61612 0.61612 0 0.617246 0.617246 0 0.623874 0.623874 0 0.624589 0.624589 0 0.625292 0.625292 0 0.625394 0.625394 0 0.625486 0.625486 0 0.626187 0.626187 0 0.626521 0.626521 0 0.628222 0.628222 0 0.629048 0.629048 0 0.629073 0.629073 0 0.629463 0.629463 0 0.633487 0.633487 0 0.633609 0.633609 0 0.634063 0.634063 0 0.634204 0.634204 0 0.63522 0.63522 0 0.635242 0.635242 0 0.636669 0.636669 0 0.638366 0.638366 0 0.638462 0.638462 0 0.638816 0.638816 0 0.639102 0.639102 0 0.639227 0.639227 0 0.639255 0.639255 0 0.640547 0.640547 0 0.640553 0.640553 0 0.640989 0.640989 0 0.641516 0.641516 0 0.643725 0.643725 0 0.644285 0.644285 0 0.64648 0.64648 0 0.646598 0.646598 0 0.647417 0.647417 0 0.648772 0.648772 0 0.649263 0.649263 0 0.64942 0.64942 0 0.649439 0.649439 0 0.650098 0.650098 0 0.651178 0.651178 0 0.651835 0.651835 0 0.652601 0.652601 0 0.654681 0.654681 0 0.656443 0.656443 0 0.65721 0.65721 0 0.657776 0.657776 0 0.658494 0.658494 0 0.661961 0.661961 0 0.665813 0.665813 0 0.666527 0.666527 0 0.669795 0.669795 0 0.671791 0.671791 0 0.673431 0.673431 0 0.674055 0.674055 0 0.674059 0.674059 0 0.675654 0.675654 0 0.676265 0.676265 0 0.680479 0.680479 0 0.681907 0.681907 0 0.683428 0.683428 0 0.683768 0.683768 0 0.683976 0.683976 0 0.686717 0.686717 0 0.686937 0.686937 0 0.689851 0.689851 0 0.692568 0.692568 0 0.693317 0.693317 0 0.693473 0.693473 0 0.695056 0.695056 0 0.695635 0.695635 0 0.69622 0.69622 0 0.696341 0.696341 0 0.696588 0.696588 0 0.697542 0.697542 0 0.699389 0.699389 0 0.7015 0.7015 0 0.702506 0.702506 0 0.702806 0.702806 0 0.704234 0.704234 0 0.705034 0.705034 0 0.705681 0.705681 0 0.707831 0.707831 0 0.708386 0.708386 0 0.71022 0.71022 0 0.710364 0.710364 0 0.711852 0.711852 0 0.712794 0.712794 0 0.71302 0.71302 0 0.714228 0.714228 0 0.715932 0.715932 0 0.718053 0.718053 0 0.718308 0.718308 0 0.718866 0.718866 0 0.719517 0.719517 0 0.720511 0.720511 0 0.720864 0.720864 0 0.723148 0.723148 0 0.723723 0.723723 0 0.723763 0.723763 0 0.725242 0.725242 0 0.725589 0.725589 0 0.726341 0.726341 0 0.726466 0.726466 0 0.727901 0.727901 0 0.728289 0.728289 0 0.729464 0.729464 0 0.73029 0.73029 0 0.730375 0.730375 0 0.730392 0.730392 0 0.73123 0.73123 0 0.731738 0.731738 0 0.732803 0.732803 0 0.733553 0.733553 0 0.734275 0.734275 0 0.735824 0.735824 0 0.736842 0.736842 0 0.736859 0.736859 0 0.737336 0.737336 0 0.737706 0.737706 0 0.738314 0.738314 0 0.739886 0.739886 0 0.7402 0.7402 0 0.740594 0.740594 0 0.741131 0.741131 0 0.746841 0.746841 0 0.748019 0.748019 0 0.751963 0.751963 0 0.752717 0.752717 0 0.756089 0.756089 0 0.756362 0.756362 0 0.756671 0.756671 0 0.758211 0.758211 0 0.758433 0.758433 0 0.758503 0.758503 0 0.759328 0.759328 0 0.759582 0.759582 0 0.760086 0.760086 0 0.76107 0.76107 0 0.762261 0.762261 0 0.762469 0.762469 0 0.762706 0.762706 0 0.764155 0.764155 0 0.764748 0.764748 0 0.766069 0.766069 0 0.76843 0.76843 0 0.768547 0.768547 0 0.768946 0.768946 0 0.768983 0.768983 0 0.769194 0.769194 0 0.769319 0.769319 0 0.772875 0.772875 0 0.774539 0.774539 0 0.774882 0.774882 0 0.774886 0.774886 0 0.775285 0.775285 0 0.778147 0.778147 0 0.78024 0.78024 0 0.780922 0.780922 0 0.781325 0.781325 0 0.782776 0.782776 0 0.783052 0.783052 0 0.784532 0.784532 0 0.785192 0.785192 0 0.786001 0.786001 0 0.786035 0.786035 0 0.786041 0.786041 0 0.786264 0.786264 0 0.787118 0.787118 0 0.787196 0.787196 0 0.788034 0.788034 0 0.790835 0.790835 0 0.791464 0.791464 0 0.792164 0.792164 0 0.792291 0.792291 0 0.79276 0.79276 0 0.793302 0.793302 0 0.794259 0.794259 0 0.795897 0.795897 0 0.795974 0.795974 0 0.797024 0.797024 0 0.798212 0.798212 0 0.79951 0.79951 0 0.801092 0.801092 0 0.802292 0.802292 0 0.803692 0.803692 0 0.804489 0.804489 0 0.805338 0.805338 0 0.805667 0.805667 0 0.806967 0.806967 0 0.808235 0.808235 0 0.808278 0.808278 0 0.808655 0.808655 0 0.808875 0.808875 0 0.811185 0.811185 0 0.811705 0.811705 0 0.811992 0.811992 0 0.812138 0.812138 0 0.81288 0.81288 0 0.81412 0.81412 0 0.815071 0.815071 0 0.815298 0.815298 0 0.815705 0.815705 0 0.815967 0.815967 0 0.816505 0.816505 0 0.819036 0.819036 0 0.820938 0.820938 0 0.821544 0.821544 0 0.822587 0.822587 0 0.823302 0.823302 0 0.823327 0.823327 0 0.82404 0.82404 0 0.824891 0.824891 0 0.826272 0.826272 0 0.826656 0.826656 0 0.828555 0.828555 0 0.828923 0.828923 0 0.829393 0.829393 0 0.833245 0.833245 0 0.834491 0.834491 0 0.835269 0.835269 0 0.836107 0.836107 0 0.838705 0.838705 0 0.838942 0.838942 0 0.84127 0.84127 0 0.8425 0.8425 0 0.8431 0.8431 0 0.843919 0.843919 0 0.846719 0.846719 0 0.848627 0.848627 0 0.848683 0.848683 0 0.851209 0.851209 0 0.85191 0.85191 0 0.85342 0.85342 0 0.856801 0.856801 0 0.857146 0.857146 0 0.86092 0.86092 0 0.861175 0.861175 0 0.861595 0.861595 0 0.864275 0.864275 0 0.86507 0.86507 0 0.865099 0.865099 0 0.865198 0.865198 0 0.865396 0.865396 0 0.866546 0.866546 0 0.868396 0.868396 0 0.868769 0.868769 0 0.869814 0.869814 0 0.870019 0.870019 0 0.870422 0.870422 0 0.870502 0.870502 0 0.873842 0.873842 0 0.873924 0.873924 0 0.874378 0.874378 0 0.874869 0.874869 0 0.875509 0.875509 0 0.876558 0.876558 0 0.876877 0.876877 0 0.877067 0.877067 0 0.878393 0.878393 0 0.879207 0.879207 0 0.879594 0.879594 0 0.880858 0.880858 0 0.881861 0.881861 0 0.882336 0.882336 0 0.883328 0.883328 0 0.885861 0.885861 0 0.885921 0.885921 0 0.887148 0.887148 0 0.88875 0.88875 0 0.889836 0.889836 0 0.890378 0.890378 0 0.891767 0.891767 0 0.891815 0.891815 0 0.892657 0.892657 0 0.894519 0.894519 0 0.89598 0.89598 0 0.896731 0.896731 0 0.898076 0.898076 0 0.898616 0.898616 0 0.899193 0.899193 0 0.89981 0.89981 0 0.900337 0.900337 0 0.901849 0.901849 0 0.902355 0.902355 0 0.902722 0.902722 0 0.902743 0.902743 0 0.903554 0.903554 0 0.905362 0.905362 0 0.906098 0.906098 0 0.907824 0.907824 0 0.908673 0.908673 0 0.909072 0.909072 0 0.910487 0.910487 0 0.912438 0.912438 0 0.914483 0.914483 0 0.914566 0.914566 0 0.916082 0.916082 0 0.916431 0.916431 0 0.916523 0.916523 0 0.91689 0.91689 0 0.918483 0.918483 0 0.919221 0.919221 0 0.920066 0.920066 0 0.92008 0.92008 0 0.920837 0.920837 0 0.920892 0.920892 0 0.921995 0.921995 0 0.925065 0.925065 0 0.925159 0.925159 0 0.92527 0.92527 0 0.925796 0.925796 0 0.926482 0.926482 0 0.927156 0.927156 0 0.92743 0.92743 0 0.927886 0.927886 0 0.92815 0.92815 0 0.928265 0.928265 0 0.928351 0.928351 0 0.929532 0.929532 0 0.929717 0.929717 0 0.929939 0.929939 0 0.930107 0.930107 0 0.930636 0.930636 0 0.931172 0.931172 0 0.931369 0.931369 0 0.932445 0.932445 0 0.932582 0.932582 0 0.934632 0.934632 0 0.936018 0.936018 0 0.93683 0.93683 0 0.937641 0.937641 0 0.9394 0.9394 0 0.939947 0.939947 0 0.940393 0.940393 0 0.942321 0.942321 0 0.942633 0.942633 0 0.943088 0.943088 0 0.943175 0.943175 0 0.943383 0.943383 0 0.943844 0.943844 0 0.944388 0.944388 0 0.945649 0.945649 0 0.950975 0.950975 0 0.951389 0.951389 0 0.951501 0.951501 0 0.953888 0.953888 0 0.954536 0.954536 0 0.957716 0.957716 0 0.958159 0.958159 0 0.958439 0.958439 0 0.958482 0.958482 0 0.960815 0.960815 0 0.963257 0.963257 0 0.9654 0.9654 0 0.967701 0.967701 0 0.968789 0.968789 0 0.971323 0.971323 0 0.971474 0.971474 0 0.972577 0.972577 0 0.972853 0.972853 0 0.972892 0.972892 0 0.973039 0.973039 0 0.973333 0.973333 0 0.974006 0.974006 0 0.975541 0.975541 0 0.975695 0.975695 0 0.976913 0.976913 0 0.977425 0.977425 0 0.978029 0.978029 0 0.979022 0.979022 0 0.97946 0.97946 0 0.98096 0.98096 0 0.981241 0.981241 0 0.981523 0.981523 0 0.98343 0.98343 0 0.984216 0.984216 0 0.984582 0.984582 0 0.985972 0.985972 0 0.986924 0.986924 0 0.987257 0.987257 0 0.988469 0.988469 0 0.991214 0.991214 0 0.992372 0.992372 0 0.99716 0.99716 0 0.997619 0.997619 0

You can see that the difference is zero for every trial.
.

by **FrediFizzx** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:56 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Where did I promise that? Don't make things up.
.

I asked you. You said you would code it. I suppose you didn't understand my question.

But there is progress, now you do understand my question! You can simply say "no" if you don't want to do it / don't know how to do it.

It is obvious that there is no sense for me to continue with this since you are going to refuse to understand it anyways. You saw the sample output. That will have to do it. The product calculation is validated via computer program.
.

by **gill1109** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:02 am

FrediFizzx wrote:Where did I promise that? Don't make things up.
.

I asked you. You said you would code it. I suppose you didn't understand my question.

But there is progress, now you do understand my question! You can simply say "no" if you don't want to do it / don't know how to do it.

by **gill1109** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:53 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Hmm... seems like I never posted the 3D code. I will have to find it. But I am going to tell you now that it is QM mapped to geometric algebra for validation of the product calculation.

Here is a link to the GHZ code to amuse yourself with in the meantime.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=324
.

I guess I never did the 3-sphere with 3D vectors code so I will have to do that. In the meantime,

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=388
.

GAviewer code would be fine. But please make sure that it is code which recognisably implements your current two formulas defining A(a, lambda) and B(b, lambda). We would like to see what you really do mean by your non-standard limit notation and your non-standard linking of the dummy variables in two separate equations. If I try to implement it, I will end up getting the wrong answer, *and* you guys will accuse me of doing a straw-man attack, and it will all have been a waste of time.
…

There is nothing non-standard about $\lim_{x\rightarrow c} x = c$ . I can't believe a math professor would call that non-standard. And there is no non-standard linking of the vector s between A and B. s_A = -s_B is required by the physics of the original singlet after it splits. You must be trying to mentally block yourself from the truth.

But the limits don't matter for the product calculation anyway as they are not used in it when QM is mapped to GA. I will have the validation of the product calculation via GAViewer done soon.
.

Your assumptions about math professors are badly wrong. Looking forward to seeing the GA. But I want to see how you express the limits in GA! You say "the limits do not matter because they are not used when QM is mapped to GA". You promised us GA which would verify and elucidate what you mean by your limit operations.

You don't use $\lim_{x\rightarrow c} x = c$ , so I don't see why you mention it. Physics is one thing but if you want to express physics in mathematical language, the mathematics had better make sense, too. By all means expand mathematics with new features and new structures if you need them. But give them a coherent mathematical definition. Presently you expand mathematics but give no bridge between the established and accepted old stuff, and the new. So your work is not scientific. No one can reproduce your computations. Because you are the sole owner of their meaning and you simply mean them to get the right answer (which we knew in advance), but don't apparently care how you get the right answer.

by **FrediFizzx** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:48 am

Here is a sample output with 1000 trials,

Code: Select all: correlation = 0.061235 negcos = 0.061235 correlation = -0.678012 negcos = -0.678012 correlation = -0.167233 negcos = -0.167233 correlation = 0.880062 negcos = 0.880062 correlation = -0.275535 negcos = -0.275535 correlation = -0.401002 negcos = -0.401002 correlation = -0.484143 negcos = -0.484143 correlation = -0.428842 negcos = -0.428842 correlation = 0.497313 negcos = 0.497313 correlation = 0.602708 negcos = 0.602708 correlation = -0.998583 negcos = -0.998583 correlation = 0.022876 negcos = 0.022876 correlation = 0.282134 negcos = 0.282134 correlation = -0.281004 negcos = -0.281004 correlation = -0.508342 negcos = -0.508342 correlation = 0.312666 negcos = 0.312666 correlation = -0.297470 negcos = -0.297470 correlation = -0.121253 negcos = -0.121253 mean = -0.013428 + -0.005777*e2^e3 + -0.001460*e3^e1 + 0.016000*e1^e2 aveA = 0.024000 aveB = -0.024000

You can see that the correlations are matching the negative cosine to 6 decimal places event by event. I'm just trying to correctly extract the angle between a and b so that I can plot the data. It is a bit tougher since the vectors are in 3D.
.

by **FrediFizzx** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:32 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Hmm... seems like I never posted the 3D code. I will have to find it. But I am going to tell you now that it is QM mapped to geometric algebra for validation of the product calculation.

Here is a link to the GHZ code to amuse yourself with in the meantime.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=324
.

I guess I never did the 3-sphere with 3D vectors code so I will have to do that. In the meantime,

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=388
.

GAviewer code would be fine. But please make sure that it is code which recognisably implements your current two formulas defining A(a, lambda) and B(b, lambda). We would like to see what you really do mean by your non-standard limit notation and your non-standard linking of the dummy variables in two separate equations. If I try to implement it, I will end up getting the wrong answer, *and* you guys will accuse me of doing a straw-man attack, and it will all have been a waste of time.
…

There is nothing non-standard about $\lim_{x\rightarrow c} x = c$ . I can't believe a math professor would call that non-standard. And there is no non-standard linking of the vector s between A and B. s_A = -s_B is required by the physics of the original singlet after it splits. You must be trying to mentally block yourself from the truth.

But the limits don't matter for the product calculation anyway as they are not used in it when QM is mapped to GA. I will have the validation of the product calculation via GAViewer done soon.
.

by **gill1109** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:19 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Hmm... seems like I never posted the 3D code. I will have to find it. But I am going to tell you now that it is QM mapped to geometric algebra for validation of the product calculation.

Here is a link to the GHZ code to amuse yourself with in the meantime.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=324
.

I guess I never did the 3-sphere with 3D vectors code so I will have to do that. In the meantime,

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=388
.

GAviewer code would be fine. But please make sure that it is code which recognisably implements your current two formulas defining A(a, lambda) and B(b, lambda). We would like to see what you really do mean by your non-standard limit notation and your non-standard linking of the dummy variables in two separate equations. If I try to implement it, I will end up getting the wrong answer, *and* you guys will accuse me of doing a straw-man attack, and it will all have been a waste of time.

Example. Already some years ago I tried to understand Python code of Michel and wrote "my own" version of his algorithm in R, but of course, he could not accept what I then wrote about "his" algorithm. He had published Python code only. He gave no literature reference and gave no clue where he had got the ideas from. If he had published a mathematical article using conventional mathematical notations, then the Python code could have been an implementation of his published mathematical formulas. And other people could have made other implementations. And everyone could openly discuss the maths and the implementations and the interpretations.

I think we need to come to some minimal requirements of simulation programs. The important thing is that one can experiment with them. And experiments must be reproducible. And for these reasons, I think the programs must have the following minimal requirements:

1) "save random seed" and "restore random seed" facilities
2) the user can freely submit their own *settings*
3) the user can demand that only one "trial" is done (one trial = two settings and two outcomes)

Any comments on these requirements? I think they are reasonable. If you think they are unreasonable, why?

I want to be able to test such software on a single computer, and not have to go to the trouble of setting up a computer network. But the computer program must in principle be so modular with modules for the source, for Alice's detector, and for Bob's detector.

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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!