Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

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Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Yablon » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:07 am

gill1109 wrote:
Heinera wrote:Of course it wouldn't be secure! That's how we're going to make the money, by indulging in criminal activity! :lol:

(oops, I forgot we have a lawyer among us... )

Lawyers also work for criminals... Everyone has a right to a lawyer.

Well, if somebody needs to obtain a patent for something, I can help. Criminal defense, not so much. :D

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by gill1109 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:39 am

Heinera wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote: :lol: It is mathematically impossible to "violate" any of the Bell inequalities!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why they are completely irrelevant.
.

But that is not the point at all. These communication protocols do violate the conventional Bell inequalities, even in experimental prototypes. If we can find a way to do the same with classical computers, we will all be stinking rich! Don't let us down, Fred. Really.

Heinera, you are wrong here. If we can find a way to perform those protocols with classical computers then they will *not* be secure. Because an inside-agent eaves-dropper can clone the classical computers and break into the communication with no one knowing. This is called the Trojan horse attack.


Of course it wouldn't be secure! That's how we're going to make the money, by indulging in criminal activity! :lol:

(oops, I forgot we have a lawyer among us... )

Lawyers also work for criminals... Everyone has a right to a lawyer.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Heinera » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:10 am

gill1109 wrote:
Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote: :lol: It is mathematically impossible to "violate" any of the Bell inequalities!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why they are completely irrelevant.
.

But that is not the point at all. These communication protocols do violate the conventional Bell inequalities, even in experimental prototypes. If we can find a way to do the same with classical computers, we will all be stinking rich! Don't let us down, Fred. Really.

Heinera, you are wrong here. If we can find a way to perform those protocols with classical computers then they will *not* be secure. Because an inside-agent eaves-dropper can clone the classical computers and break into the communication with no one knowing. This is called the Trojan horse attack.


Of course it wouldn't be secure! That's how we're going to make the money, by indulging in criminal activity! :lol:

(oops, I forgot we have a lawyer among us... )

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Joy Christian » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:12 am

gill1109 wrote:
This is why Joy Christian's work is suppressed.

The real reason why and how my work is suppressed is all too well known to the readers of this forum. A good example of it is documented here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=283#p6766.

***

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by gill1109 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:06 pm

Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote: :lol: It is mathematically impossible to "violate" any of the Bell inequalities!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why they are completely irrelevant.
.

But that is not the point at all. These communication protocols do violate the conventional Bell inequalities, even in experimental prototypes. If we can find a way to do the same with classical computers, we will all be stinking rich! Don't let us down, Fred. Really.

Heinera, you are wrong here. If we can find a way to perform those protocols with classical computers then they will *not* be secure. Because an inside-agent eaves-dropper can clone the classical computers and break into the communication with no one knowing. This is called the Trojan horse attack.

Possibly the hype about quantum is going on precisely because the top scientists of the US military do know that actually quantum key distribution is not safe. They would like everyone to use it, but nobody to know that it is unsafe. Only they know. Hence they will be able to decode all the electronic communication and electronic banking in the world, and nobody will know.

This is why Joy Christian's work is suppressed. The secret top of the US industrial-military complex (let's call them "the illuminati") has got a major interest in everyone thinking that quantum communication is safe, and everyone using it, and only they knowing that it can be cracked, and how - by using Fred's computer implementation of Joy's model."Quantum supremacy" is perhaps less than five years ahead! I fear that this is going to be a rather more sinister kind of supremacy than they are selling us.

I'm actually really surprised that Joy and Fred have not met with some kind of unfortunate accident recently. They are such a danger to the world hegemony which the illuminati are on the point of gaining.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by FrediFizzx » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:39 pm

Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote: :lol: It is mathematically impossible to "violate" any of the Bell inequalities!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why they are completely irrelevant.
.

But that is not the point at all. These communication protocols do violate the conventional Bell inequalities, even in experimental prototypes. If we can find a way to do the same with classical computers, we will all be stinking rich! Don't let us down, Fred. Really.

:lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen:
.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Heinera » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:31 pm

FrediFizzx wrote: :lol: It is mathematically impossible to "violate" any of the Bell inequalities!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why they are completely irrelevant.
.

But that is not the point at all. These communication protocols do violate the conventional Bell inequalities, even in experimental prototypes. If we can find a way to do the same with classical computers, we will all be stinking rich! Don't let us down, Fred. Really.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by FrediFizzx » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:02 pm

Heinera wrote:The last two posts by Richard and myself got me thinking. While the quantum protocols are at present impractical and costly, and thus mostly a theoretical exercise so far, this will in all likelihood change with future advances in engineering. But if Bell was wrong, he will be wrong forever.

So, if we could in fact demonstrably violate Bell-type inequalities with classical computers, how can we monetize on this? For one thing, we could generate very cheap/fake proofs of the protocols. I'm pretty sure we could make a s**tload of money. Would we need to keep the discovery a secret? I guess so. Any ideas? Should we start a new, secret thread?

:lol: It is mathematically impossible to "violate" any of the Bell inequalities!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why they are completely irrelevant.
.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Heinera » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:43 am

The last two posts by Richard and myself got me thinking. While the quantum protocols are at present impractical and costly, and thus mostly a theoretical exercise so far, this will in all likelihood change with future advances in engineering. But if Bell was wrong, he will be wrong forever.

So, if we could in fact demonstrably violate Bell-type inequalities with classical computers, how can we monetize on this? For one thing, we could generate very cheap/fake proofs of the protocols. I'm pretty sure we could make a s**tload of money. Would we need to keep the discovery a secret? I guess so. Any ideas? Should we start a new, secret thread?

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Heinera » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:08 am

gill1109 wrote:Well, Bell's theorem does tell you (if you believe that the world is run by QM) how to do secure cryptographic key distribution, how to do perfectly secure random number generation, and lots more. So it is the key to a whole heap of applications, some of which are already being marketed by clever entrepreneurs and used by government "defence" organs...

We could well add Quantum Information Science to the other two, but I consider it to be more computer science and communication theory, and less physics. And yes, a demonstrable violation of some Bell inequality is typically used as proof of randomness or privacy in these protocols.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Joy Christian » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:37 am

***
And yet, Bell's theorem is wrong, it has nothing to do with fundamental physics, and a very successful local-realistic framework reproducing strong quantum correlations already exists. :)

***

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by gill1109 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:30 am

Heinera wrote:I wouldn't call it "icky", but in contrast to most other theorems in physics, Bell's theorem is completely useless if you work in another field than Quantum Foundations or Philosophy of Science. Most other mathematical theorems that physicists care about are of the type where you can replace something complex in a theory with something simpler and more easily calculated, and appeal to the teorem to argue that they are equivalent. Those theorems are part of the physicist's tool box. Bell's theorem is in a sense the opposite; it "merely" tells you what mathematical structures won't work if you want to achieve a particular result (the QM correlations).

Well, Bell's theorem does tell you (if you believe that the world is run by QM) how to do secure cryptographic key distribution, how to do perfectly secure random number generation, and lots more. So it is the key to a whole heap of applications, some of which are already being marketed by clever entrepreneurs and used by government "defence" organs...

Amusingly, long ago Luigi Accardi together with a Japanese colleague was already *selling* a classical quantum key distribution system by exploiting the detection loophole to "fake" quantum correlations. Of course, since it was actually a classical system, it would have been easy for an eavesdropper to break in and no-one would notice. That was before the various experimental loopholes were rather thoroughly explored and we learnt how to mitigate or even abolish all of them (thanks, in particular, to my own work, inspired by the work of people exactly like Accardi. I needed to set up a bet with him that he could *not* win, except by a small chance which I knew).

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Heinera » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:03 am

I wouldn't call it "icky", but in contrast to most other theorems in physics, Bell's theorem is completely useless if you work in another field than Quantum Foundations or Philosophy of Science. Most other mathematical theorems that physicists care about are of the type where you can replace something complex in a theory with something simpler and more easily calculated, and appeal to the teorem to argue that they are equivalent. Those theorems are part of the physicist's tool box. Bell's theorem is in a sense the opposite; it "merely" tells you what mathematical structures won't work if you want to achieve a particular result (the QM correlations).

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Yablon » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:21 am

Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to get Google to give you a file containing those 13508 literature references? [to Bell's 1964 paper]

Then we could sample 100 of them and find out how many agree with the theorem and how many disagree. Obviously, most of those references are just the standard obligatory reference which anyone has to give who writes anything remotely connected to entanglement and quantum information.

The 13,508 literature references do not define "the physics community." Heinera made a ridiculous claim and then tried to justify it with ridiculous analysis using irrelevant "Google" data.

More likely is that 95% of the physicists couldn't care less about Bell and his theorem. Ask Jay, for example. Did he, as a particle physicist, care about Bell or his theorem until recently?

I'm sure you're right! Most physicists don't know and/or don't care. A very great many have vaguely heard something about it and think it is something fishy which should be avoided.

The "official line" (ie, the line of journal editors) is that it is true and that experiments have confirmed it to be true. Those journal editors have no idea what it actually is and no clue that their official line is devoid of any logic.

I couldn't agree more!

PS: I have witnessed Bell himself saying that his interest in the foundations of quantum mechanics was seen by his colleagues at CERN as an "eccentric hobby."
***

Well then, make it a trifecta, with me, Richard and Joy all on the same page.

As a particle physics seeking to explain why various particles have the masses and energies which they have, for quite a few years I watched discussions like the present one from the sidelines, with a basic sense that all of this was “icky.” But when Richard came calling and Joy agreed with having a symposium, aware that all of this was symptomatic that the Einstein Bohr debates are still raging 90+ years later, I did what I felt was my civic duty to the scientific enterprise, set aside my preference to work on particle physics, and enlisted.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Joy Christian » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:44 am

gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to get Google to give you a file containing those 13508 literature references? [to Bell's 1964 paper]

Then we could sample 100 of them and find out how many agree with the theorem and how many disagree. Obviously, most of those references are just the standard obligatory reference which anyone has to give who writes anything remotely connected to entanglement and quantum information.

The 13,508 literature references do not define "the physics community." Heinera made a ridiculous claim and then tried to justify it with ridiculous analysis using irrelevant "Google" data.

More likely is that 95% of the physicists couldn't care less about Bell and his theorem. Ask Jay, for example. Did he, as a particle physicist, care about Bell or his theorem until recently?

I'm sure you're right! Most physicists don't know and/or don't care. A very great many have vaguely heard something about it and think it is something fishy which should be avoided.

The "official line" (ie, the line of journal editors) is that it is true and that experiments have confirmed it to be true. Those journal editors have no idea what it actually is and no clue that their official line is devoid of any logic.

I couldn't agree more!

PS: I have witnessed Bell himself saying that his interest in the foundations of quantum mechanics was seen by his colleagues at CERN as an "eccentric hobby."

***

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by gill1109 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:37 am

Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to get Google to give you a file containing those 13508 literature references? [to Bell's 1964 paper]

Then we could sample 100 of them and find out how many agree with the theorem and how many disagree. Obviously, most of those references are just the standard obligatory reference which anyone has to give who writes anything remotely connected to entanglement and quantum information.

The 13,508 literature references do not define "the physics community." Heinera made a ridiculous claim and then tried to justify it with ridiculous analysis using irrelevant "Google" data.

More likely is that 95% of the physicists couldn't care less about Bell and his theorem. Ask Jay, for example. Did he, as a particle physicist, care about Bell or his theorem until recently?

***

I'm sure you're right! Most physicists don't know and/or don't care. A very great many have vaguely heard something about it and think it is something fishy which should be avoided.

The "official line" (ie, the line of journal editors) is that it is true and that experiments have confirmed it to be true. Those journal editors have no idea what it actually is and no clue that their official line is devoid of any logic.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Joy Christian » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:12 am

gill1109 wrote:
Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:Google lists about 13 000 citations to the paper. Go through a random sample of those papers and see how many you find that claim the theorem is wrong.

I just did a random sample test using the same statistical tactics that Bell's theorem uses. I found that the majority ( 75% ) of the papers on Google show that Bell's theorem is wrong. That contradicts your claims on this forum. I think it is high time that you do not make claims about the subject you know nothing about, or have any demonstrable authority or qualifications in.

***

When I say "random", your usual tactic of cherry picking is of course not allowed. Go through them all, then. It's a finite number.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get Google to give you a file containing those 13508 literature references?

Then we could sample 100 of them and find out how many agree with the theorem and how many disagree. Obviously, most of those references are just the standard obligatory reference which anyone has to give who writes anything remotely connected to entanglement and quantum information.

The 13,508 literature references do not define "the physics community." Heinera made a ridiculous claim and then tried to justify it with ridiculous analysis using irrelevant "Google" data.

More likely is that 95% of the physicists couldn't care less about Bell and his theorem. Ask Jay, for example. Did he, as a particle physicist, care about Bell or his theorem until recently?

***

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by gill1109 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:55 am

Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:Google lists about 13 000 citations to the paper. Go through a random sample of those papers and see how many you find that claim the theorem is wrong.

I just did a random sample test using the same statistical tactics that Bell's theorem uses. I found that the majority ( 75% ) of the papers on Google show that Bell's theorem is wrong. That contradicts your claims on this forum. I think it is high time that you do not make claims about the subject you know nothing about, or have any demonstrable authority or qualifications in.

***

When I say "random", your usual tactic of cherry picking is of course not allowed. Go through them all, then. It's a finite number.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get Google to give you a file containing those 13508 literature references?

Then we could sample 100 of them and find out how many agree with the theorem and how many disagree. Obviously, most of those references are just the standard obligatory reference which anyone has to give who writes anything remotely connected to entanglement and quantum information.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Heinera » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:22 am

Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:Google lists about 13 000 citations to the paper. Go through a random sample of those papers and see how many you find that claim the theorem is wrong.

I just did a random sample test using the same statistical tactics that Bell's theorem uses. I found that the majority ( 75% ) of the papers on Google show that Bell's theorem is wrong. That contradicts your claims on this forum. I think it is high time that you do not make claims about the subject you know nothing about, or have any demonstrable authority or qualifications in.

***

When I say "random", your usual tactic of cherry picking is of course not allowed. Go through them all, then. It's a finite number.

Re: Is quantum mechanics itself local and realistic?

Post by Joy Christian » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:33 am

Heinera wrote:Google lists about 13 000 citations to the paper. Go through a random sample of those papers and see how many you find that claim the theorem is wrong.

I just did a random sample test using the same statistical tactics that Bell's theorem uses. I found that the majority ( 75% ) of the papers on Google show that Bell's theorem is wrong. That contradicts your claims on this forum. I think it is high time that you do not make claims about the subject you know nothing about, or have any demonstrable authority or qualifications in.

***

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