Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

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Expand view Topic review: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:31 am

Jarek wrote:Indeed such working local hidden variable model would e.g. make banking no longer secure (elliptic curves are also prone) ... fortunately Christian doesn't have such mundane goals.

Returning to Hardy, amplitude of |11> is zero, what means its probability is zero, that it is forbidden - this is much stronger condition than just zeroing average over hidden variable used by Christian - do you see (61) and (91) equivalent in his https://arxiv.org/pdf/0904.4259 ?

As I noted before, there is no problem here because every quantum mechanical prediction of the Hardy state is identical to the 3-sphere prediction of the Hardy state.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:23 am

Indeed such working local hidden variable model would e.g. make banking no longer secure (elliptic curves are also prone) ... fortunately Christian doesn't have such mundane goals.

Returning to Hardy, amplitude of |11> is zero, what means its probability is zero, that it is forbidden - this is much stronger condition than just zeroing average over hidden variable used by Christian - do you see (61) and (91) equivalent in his https://arxiv.org/pdf/0904.4259 ?

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by gill1109 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:38 am

Jarek wrote:The difficulty of Hardy paradox is completely forbidding some possibilities, but you only work on averages - the base of your construction is equivalence between (61) and (91), which I see incorrect. I am leaving it unless explained.

Shor algorithm concerns quantum correlations of prepared and processed quantum state - fits your restriction.

In the Hardy paradox a certain average is zero. If Christian can reproduce the mean values predicted by the Hardy state and the Hardy measurements, then his model also says that something can never happen.

Jarek wrote:Quantum algorithms, especially Shor, are the ultimate test.
If you can effectively simulate them avoiding exponential cost of superposition, you will take all the spotlight from this currently huge field, immediately convince everybody, enforce rapid replacement of used cryptography ...
If you cannot, then your hidden variable is still missing something - might handle simple cases, but does not generalize.


The impact on quantum algorithms is a bit different from what you suggest.

1) if Christian's model can be transferred to an event-by-event simulation of a local hidden variables model which can also imitate (with no loss of speed) various standard unitary transformations, then we can factor large integers very fast on classical computers, and indeed, quantum computers are superfluous and standard cryptography used in internet banking etc needs to be replaced.

2) if Christian's model of the singlet correlations (and violation of Bell's inequality) can be transferred to an event-by-event simulation of a local hidden variables model then upcoming quantum cryptography and quantum key distribution is destroyed, because an insider can surreptitously replace the quantum components of such a system with classical computers; which of course are able to "clone" data without anyone noticing; so the users can be fooled into believing they have established quantum securely shared random strings for use as cryptographic keys, but the insider actually can reproduce those keys and hence also decode all future messages sent in classical channels, bu encrypted using the secret quantum generated keys.

Either way, if Christian's work is correct, the whole quantum computer hype collapses.

Now, it was published years ago, so everybody who could want to know Christian's methods, can just read his papers and copy the computer code written by Fred and others. I suspect that clandestine agencies are already working on implementing Christian's model as a trojan horse in order to infiltrate their enemy's supposedly quantum cryptographically secure communication system. They benefit by everyone believing that Christian's work is incorrect. So, it is not being suppressed by the establishment, in order to keep the quantum hype alive; it is being suppressed by the Illuminati, who are going to use it for world domination, and benefit from everyone else believing that Christian's work is discredited.

This can apply both to Shor's algorithm - a classical computer implementation of the algorithm with no loss of speed would be a splendid tool for the Illuminati - and to quantum key distribution. It's a win win situation for them. But everybody has to believe that Christian's work is not worth looking at. Otherwise they lose their fantastic opportunity for world domination.

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Jarek wrote:The difficulty of Hardy paradox is completely forbidding some possibilities, but you only work on averages - the base of your construction is equivalence between (61) and (91), which I see incorrect. I am leaving it unless explained.

Shor algorithm concerns quantum correlations of prepared and processed quantum state - fits your restriction.

There is no difficulty because the quantum mechanical predictions of the Hardy state and the 3-sphere predictions of the Hardy state are identical.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:43 pm

The difficulty of Hardy paradox is completely forbidding some possibilities, but you only work on averages - the base of your construction is equivalence between (61) and (91), which I see incorrect. I am leaving it unless explained.

Shor algorithm concerns quantum correlations of prepared and processed quantum state - fits your restriction.

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:41 pm

Jarek wrote:Functioning of Shor's algorithm is one of consequences of quantum mechanics - if you want to predict all, you also need this one.

Regarding Hardy, you write (91) is equivalent (61), but the latter says that probability is zero: it is forbidden for all lambda, while the former only says that average over lambda is zero.

There is no inconsistency between what is predicted by quantum mechanics for the Hardy state and what is predicted by my model. That is quite clear from the calculations in my paper.

Shor's algorithm does not concern me. My goal has been to reproduce the quantum mechanical predictions of all quantum correlations, regardless of what the underlying quantum state is.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Heinera » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:30 pm

Joy Christian wrote:Lucien Hardy, by the way, is a friend of mine. We have known each other since before he got his Ph.D. He is well aware of my paper since it came out in 2009.
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Odd, then, that he has never publicly written a single word to defend your theory. But what do I know.

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:30 pm

Functioning of Shor's algorithm is one of consequences of quantum mechanics - if you want to predict all, you also need this one.

Regarding Hardy, you write (91) is equivalent (61), but the latter says that probability is zero: it is forbidden for all lambda, while the former only says that average over lambda is zero.

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:16 pm

Jarek wrote:Shor "algorithm" is just an experimental setting - combination of multiple quantum operations.
Claiming a complete hidden variable model, you cannot just skip such physical settings.

Returning to Hardy, I see it wasn't included in your Royal Society paper.
Equation (91) in your https://arxiv.org/pdf/0904.4259.pdf says that expected value over the hidden variable is zero ... while in Hardy we have much stronger condition: for all hidden variables lambda, |11> is impossible.

I have not skipped any experimental settings. I don't care about any algorithms, Shor's or otherwise. What is important for local realism is that I have reproduced all predictions of quantum mechanics exactly, including those 16 predicted by the Hardy state. You are making claims about my model without actually reading my paper in detail, let alone understanding the model.

Lucien Hardy, by the way, is a friend of mine. We have known each other since before he got his Ph.D. He is well aware of my paper since it came out in 2009. The following footnote 3 on page 20 of my RSOS paper discusses the calculations within my model for the Hardy state. But you are right that explicit calculations of the Hardy state are not included in the RSOS paper because (among other things) the paper was getting far too long.

Image

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:53 am

Shor "algorithm" is just an experimental setting - combination of multiple quantum operations.
Claiming a complete hidden variable model, you cannot just skip such physical settings.

Returning to Hardy, I see it wasn't included in your Royal Society paper.
Equation (91) in your https://arxiv.org/pdf/0904.4259.pdf says that expected value over the hidden variable is zero ... while in Hardy we have much stronger condition: for all hidden variables lambda, |11> is impossible.

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:22 am

Jarek wrote:I am just a blank page in this conflict, was looking for comments regarding your Hardy paradox construction, what has lead me to Scott's blog.
Anyway, I see you have considered quantum algorithms before and don't like them - I assume the reason is that your model didn't work for them, what is not very surprising as Shor's classical simulation would require retrocausality.
While current experimental realizations of Shor's algorithm are not extremely convincing, this algorithm is in agreement with QM - claiming it won't work would mean disagreeing with QM.

Ok, let's focus on Hardy's paradox in this thread. I don't believe it can be obtained by forward in time local hidden variable model, but pointing problem in your construction would require some work - I hope somebody else has already done it (?), otherwise I will probably look closer in some future.

You are still not getting my message. I couldn't care less about Shor algorithm or any other algorithms. I don't need algorithms since they are irrelevant to the question of local realism.

As for my 3-sphere model, it reproduces all predictions of Hardy's state. It was considered and published by a Royal Society journal: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... sos.180526.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:09 am

I am just a blank page in this conflict, was looking for comments regarding your Hardy paradox construction, what has lead me to Scott's blog.
Anyway, I see you have considered quantum algorithms before and don't like them - I assume the reason is that your model didn't work for them, what is not very surprising as Shor's classical simulation would require retrocausality.
While current experimental realizations of Shor's algorithm are not extremely convincing, this algorithm is in agreement with QM - claiming it won't work would mean disagreeing with QM.

Ok, let's focus on Hardy's paradox in this thread. I don't believe it can be obtained by forward in time local hidden variable model, but pointing problem in your construction would require some work - I hope somebody else has already done it (?), otherwise I will probably look closer in some future.

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:24 am

Jarek wrote:I have just found that you have considered quantum computers: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=993

As it is not that simple to verify, can maybe anybody else comment Joy's construction for Hardy's paradox?

Ah.. so now you resort to a cheap shot by linking Aaronson. I have responded to Aaronson in a more dignified manner here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=368#p8377

Joy Christian wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
I have written up a long overdue refutation of Scott Aaronson's online critique of my local-realistic model:

Refutation of Scott Aaronson's Critique of my Disproof of Bell's Theorem

Image

Fortunately, the Truth cannot be starved off so easily, and Aaronson has not succeeded in his goal. :)

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:13 am

I have just found that you have considered quantum computers: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=993

As it is not that simple to verify, can maybe anybody else comment Joy's construction for Hardy's paradox?

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:08 am

Jarek wrote:Indeed I read a very clear message, especially that it is really hard to imagine that you haven't tried simple quantum gates if believing to have a hidden variable model for more than a decade.
Don't worry, for this moment I believe a complete forward in time hidden variable model - covering also more complex situations, is just impossible - but would gladly change my mind.

Don't worry, I don't worry about your opinion at all. :) It is clear that you haven't got the message of my replies above. Unfortunately, my local-realistic model is not everyone's cup of tea.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:56 am

Indeed I read a very clear message, especially that it is really hard to imagine that you haven't tried simple quantum gates if believing to have a hidden variable model for more than a decade.
Don't worry, for this moment I believe a complete forward in time hidden variable model - covering also more complex situations, is just impossible - but would gladly change my mind.

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:42 am

Jarek wrote:In physical realizations these gates are realized by physical processes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_c ... alizations
I assume you are not able to realize it with your model, but it would be great if you could show otherwise.

I cannot be bothered one way or the other. You wouldn't be asking me if you understood what I have stressed above. Please read all of my replies again. You might then get my message.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:24 am

In physical realizations these gates are realized by physical processes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_c ... alizations
I assume you are not able to realize it with your model, but it would be great if you could show otherwise.

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:12 am

Jarek wrote:Quantum algorithm is just an experimental setting combining multiple quantum operations - would allow you to prove that your model not only works in a few small customized settings, but also for complex ones built of combined multiple operations.
For this purpose you only need to express a few simple quantum gates ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_logic_gate ) and you can build e.g. Shor from them.
The big question is if it can be done using only local hidden variables, like your Bloch-like spheres?
How would you express especially C-NOT gate with your model?

As I noted, I am not interested in quantum algorithms or the C-NOT gate. They have little to do with physics. As long as they avoid the geometry and topology of the physical space, they are no more than a video game.

Jarek wrote:I was a naive local hidden variable believer a decade ago, but broke my teeth on Shor: you split the calculation into two branches, provide input in one branch, read output for this input from second branch - to classically simulate it without superposition, you would need retrocausality: https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... its-crippl
I and many others would be extremely interested if you could handle this problem with your model, it would just end the quantum mysticism.

My model has already ended quantum mysticism decisively. It has identified the raison d'être of strong correlations and reproduced ALL quantum correlations local-realistically in principle.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Post by Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:31 am

Quantum algorithm is just an experimental setting combining multiple quantum operations - would allow you to prove that your model not only works in a few small customized settings, but also for complex ones built of combined multiple operations.
For this purpose you only need to express a few simple quantum gates ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_logic_gate ) and you can build e.g. Shor from them.
The big question is if it can be done using only local hidden variables, like your Bloch-like spheres?
How would you express especially C-NOT gate with your model?

I was a naive local hidden variable believer a decade ago, but broke my teeth on Shor: you split the calculation into two branches, provide input in one branch, read output for this input from second branch - to classically simulate it without superposition, you would need retrocausality: https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... its-crippl
I and many others would be extremely interested if you could handle this problem with your model, it would just end the quantum mysticism.

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