Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

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Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Q-reeus » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:07 am

OK thanks for update Jay. My delayed response btw was owing to no email notification of your reply post (once again). Just a random check of subforum caught it. Something I have to live with it seems.

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Yablon » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:29 am

Q-reeus wrote:Jay, it's been ~ 7 months since your last posting on viXra: http://vixra.org/abs/1609.0387
You know my prediction. How has it been traveling with submission(s) to mainstream journal(s)?

Actually, Kevin, I have not submitted the paper anywhere since then. As you may be aware, from October through March I became very involved in the retraction watch discussion about Joy's paper on Bells theorem. In early March, my grandson was born which took me out of commission for two weeks, and since my return I have been exceptionally busy and have literally had no time to work on any physics at all. Once I reach a quieter stretch which will likely not be for another month, I am going to return to that paper, review with fresh eyes after more than a half a year of dormancy, and then resume submission. Jay

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Q-reeus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:53 pm

Jay, it's been ~ 7 months since your last posting on viXra: http://vixra.org/abs/1609.0387
You know my prediction. How has it been traveling with submission(s) to mainstream journal(s)?

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by lkcl » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:50 am

jay i apologise deeply, i am very embarrassed that this is under the thread which you started, it detracts from the value of your work and i'm really sorry that has happened.

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Q-reeus » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:08 am

lkcl wrote:
Q-reeus wrote:You are enamored with that long-term scam-artist? My opinion on some of RM's erroneous beliefs:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=241&sid=54f13b506b0ecff60fe7d14db0092736#p6227 (and further down that thread)
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51&p=5840#p5792 (and further down that thread)

Anyone with basic physics & engineering clues should soon realize just how hopelessly flawed as a technology is his latest blazing inferno incantation of 'boundless hydrino power' scheme. And that's allowing the underlying hydrino theory has a grain of truth to it.


ok so as you probably noticed i did not respond to you because i was so shocked by what you said that i thought it best to think over how best to respond.

before doing so, i will begin by saying "I Read What You Wrote In The Links That You Gave Above and..." the moment that it became clear, in both cases, that you had not read properly what Dr Mills has written, and, thus, i was able to confirm for myself that you've made an error of judgement, i stopped reading... but i *did read what you wrote*. whilst i appreciate that it is a fantastically overwhelming 1800 page document, you say in your second post "it is important to keep an open mind" yet hypocritically begin your paragraph above with the blanket and blatant statement involving the words "scam" and "artist", whilst *at the same time* accusing me of being both incompetent and incapable of independent thought, and, crucially, incapable of using a 25-year-established skill of "knowledge discernment and inference" on which i have successfully made my livelihood in the field of Reverse-Engineering and deep protocol analysis and security threat assessment.

what particularly pissed me off about your blatant accusation of incompetence on my part was that you did not begin with the words "I Read What You Wrote and....".

ANY acknowledgement of what i wrote would have been better than you beginning with a shocking accusation of complete incompetence in my core area of expertise: empirical deduction, cross-referencing and comprehensive analysis from zero prior knowledge, aka "Black Box Reverse-Engineering".

examples include:

* I Read What You Wrote and... i strongly disagree with it for the following reasons and would like to debate them with you because i am KEEPING AN OPEN MIND.

* I Read What You Wrote and... i am being tactful and diplomatic by asking you to clarify X Y and Z because I don't understand and am KEEPING AN OPEN MIND.

* I Read What You Wrote and... I am concerned at the discrepancy between my assessment of Dr Mills and your assessment of Dr Mills... could you elaborate on why you believe I should pay attention to his work, because i am KEEPING AN OPEN MIND in light of your clear excitement and belief that theres something important here.

the fact that you did not do so - instead loudly proclaimed by inference on a public forum that i must be incompetent - not only REALLY pisses me off but also allows me to go through the following logical assessment:

* this person showed good logical reasoning skills at the beginning of this thread, and seemed to be knowledgeable. assess and associate probability of them making useful statements that should be followed up, interact with them in a useful and productive way, spend time doing so: 0.9.

* this person then made indirect accusations that i am totally incompetent, as well as made blanket statements demonstrating a lack of open-mindedness, lack of attention to detail and a failure to be able to assess comprehensive and complex documents in a field that is outside of their direct and immediate area of expertise. i know from my own experience that i am NOT incompetent at black-box reverse-engineering and knowledge inference, therefore this person's assessment must be completely false instead. they're also incredibly rude (and probably don't even realise it), leaving me with very little desire to interact with them. CONCLUSION: reassess and associate probability of them making any useful statements in the past or in the future, or any interactions being enjoyable and fun and useful and productive: 1e-6.

notice that i have not assigned you a "zero" probability: that would be "certainty", and the one thing that i have learned from bob podolski's "bill of ethics" is: certainty is a PATHOLOGICAL state of mind.

now, i would say that in a peer-reviewed mainstream setting i would expect such closed-minded and pathological behaviour, but we are a small community of people who work *outside* of mainstream science for the most part, exploring things because we want to, without necessarily having funding (or being forced to drop ideas that we would really like to explore because it would be impossible to get funding for them), and pursuing them anyway because we LOVE to do so.

to witness close-minded and blatantly rude behaviour in this SMALL community has me deeply shocked and upset - hence why i did not respond for a long time as i had to think about what to say (and whether to say it at all). i trust, Q-reese, that you will realise the harm that you've done to yourself, to me, and to the reputation and nature of this forum through the inappropriate and unthinking words that you used.

Let's see: Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:22 pm (my post) to Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:59 am (your response). A full 4 months. Weird.

Are you quite settled now, having gotten all that anger off your chest at last? Hope so.

First observation: You make many chummy comments with other members here who have continually and derisively castigated opponents of their position. Which is their prerogative. But... re your selective outrage against my supposed unacceptable behaviour - hypocrite much?

Second observation. Unlike the first observation case above, I never singled you out for derision. To me every point I made was self-evidently true. You decided to take it all very personally. And let it smoulder for MONTHS!! Instead of doing the sane thing and promptly challenging me or at least seeking clarification on any point I raised. Not my problem.

Third observation: All you have done is express righteous indignation. Nowhere in your last post is there an attempt to rebut the substance of my criticisms of RM and his now named 'Brilliant Light' venture. Feel perfectly free to do just that, and maybe I will then take you somewhat seriously.

PS: Would you like links to experts in esp. quantum physics who have had even harsher words for RM and his long track record of 'just around the corner' promises? But I imagine you are well acquainted with such and simply choose to reject them all. Whatever.

PPS: To admin. Getting to be a consistent pattern: Only by chance noticed the above posting this thread - to which I remain subscribed. No email notification!

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by lkcl » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:59 am

Q-reeus wrote:You are enamored with that long-term scam-artist? My opinion on some of RM's erroneous beliefs:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=241&sid=54f13b506b0ecff60fe7d14db0092736#p6227 (and further down that thread)
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51&p=5840#p5792 (and further down that thread)

Anyone with basic physics & engineering clues should soon realize just how hopelessly flawed as a technology is his latest blazing inferno incantation of 'boundless hydrino power' scheme. And that's allowing the underlying hydrino theory has a grain of truth to it.


ok so as you probably noticed i did not respond to you because i was so shocked by what you said that i thought it best to think over how best to respond.

before doing so, i will begin by saying "I Read What You Wrote In The Links That You Gave Above and..." the moment that it became clear, in both cases, that you had not read properly what Dr Mills has written, and, thus, i was able to confirm for myself that you've made an error of judgement, i stopped reading... but i *did read what you wrote*. whilst i appreciate that it is a fantastically overwhelming 1800 page document, you say in your second post "it is important to keep an open mind" yet hypocritically begin your paragraph above with the blanket and blatant statement involving the words "scam" and "artist", whilst *at the same time* accusing me of being both incompetent and incapable of independent thought, and, crucially, incapable of using a 25-year-established skill of "knowledge discernment and inference" on which i have successfully made my livelihood in the field of Reverse-Engineering and deep protocol analysis and security threat assessment.

what particularly pissed me off about your blatant accusation of incompetence on my part was that you did not begin with the words "I Read What You Wrote and....".

ANY acknowledgement of what i wrote would have been better than you beginning with a shocking accusation of complete incompetence in my core area of expertise: empirical deduction, cross-referencing and comprehensive analysis from zero prior knowledge, aka "Black Box Reverse-Engineering".

examples include:

* I Read What You Wrote and... i strongly disagree with it for the following reasons and would like to debate them with you because i am KEEPING AN OPEN MIND.

* I Read What You Wrote and... i am being tactful and diplomatic by asking you to clarify X Y and Z because I don't understand and am KEEPING AN OPEN MIND.

* I Read What You Wrote and... I am concerned at the discrepancy between my assessment of Dr Mills and your assessment of Dr Mills... could you elaborate on why you believe I should pay attention to his work, because i am KEEPING AN OPEN MIND in light of your clear excitement and belief that theres something important here.

the fact that you did not do so - instead loudly proclaimed by inference on a public forum that i must be incompetent - not only REALLY pisses me off but also allows me to go through the following logical assessment:

* this person showed good logical reasoning skills at the beginning of this thread, and seemed to be knowledgeable. assess and associate probability of them making useful statements that should be followed up, interact with them in a useful and productive way, spend time doing so: 0.9.

* this person then made indirect accusations that i am totally incompetent, as well as made blanket statements demonstrating a lack of open-mindedness, lack of attention to detail and a failure to be able to assess comprehensive and complex documents in a field that is outside of their direct and immediate area of expertise. i know from my own experience that i am NOT incompetent at black-box reverse-engineering and knowledge inference, therefore this person's assessment must be completely false instead. they're also incredibly rude (and probably don't even realise it), leaving me with very little desire to interact with them. CONCLUSION: reassess and associate probability of them making any useful statements in the past or in the future, or any interactions being enjoyable and fun and useful and productive: 1e-6.

notice that i have not assigned you a "zero" probability: that would be "certainty", and the one thing that i have learned from bob podolski's "bill of ethics" is: certainty is a PATHOLOGICAL state of mind.

now, i would say that in a peer-reviewed mainstream setting i would expect such closed-minded and pathological behaviour, but we are a small community of people who work *outside* of mainstream science for the most part, exploring things because we want to, without necessarily having funding (or being forced to drop ideas that we would really like to explore because it would be impossible to get funding for them), and pursuing them anyway because we LOVE to do so.

to witness close-minded and blatantly rude behaviour in this SMALL community has me deeply shocked and upset - hence why i did not respond for a long time as i had to think about what to say (and whether to say it at all). i trust, Q-reese, that you will realise the harm that you've done to yourself, to me, and to the reputation and nature of this forum through the inappropriate and unthinking words that you used.

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by thray » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:07 pm

And I find in Jay's paper, approximately what I mean::

" ... if one were (to) create a field map for any region of the universe – whether macroscopic or microscopic – in terms of the energies E that exist at each event point in that region, one could equivalently map out that very same region in terms of the dt / dτ = E / mc2 ratio at each event point with the total energy E having a variety of origins from a variety of interactions and motions. The coordinates for measuring all events in this 'dt / dτ field' are then established by a laboratory clock of the observer observing this field, for which clock dt / dτ = 1 exactly, by definition. And all other observed events (except for extremely-large motions or extremely-strong interactions) will have a dt / dτ ≅ 1 differing from 1 only by parts per million or billion or trillion or higher. But there will still be a difference from 1 that establishes a measurable dt / dτ = E / mc2 field which serves a proxy for the energy field. We shall refer to this as the 'time dilation field,' recognizing that in some instances time will dilate negatively, i.e., contract."

Except that I would call it "spacetime dilation field" because the price for dt/dtau ~1 is the identifying (not entanglement) of observer with event. Spacetime contracts; time goes to zero as Planck's constant goes to zero -- and the whole origin of events is on the interval [0,oo), the complete classical domain. That eliminates boundaries of extremely large motions or extremely strong interactions.

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by thray » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:35 am

Jay,

I must pay you a high compliment on your skills as a teacher. In reply to Rick Lockyer on RW, you wrote:

" ... if I label (4R)” with an R subscript and (4L)” with an L subscript as a reminder of whether we are using (1R) or (1L), then:

[ (I.a), (I.b) ]_R + [ (I.a), (I.b) ]_L = 0 (5)

which is alternative way to state Joy’s claimed result that:

E ( (I.a) (I.b) ) = -a.b (6)

Equation (5) is reminiscent of other expressions for commutator = 0 which are litmus tests for conservation principles, Abelian gauge theories, simultaneous observable, and the like."

This leads right into your time-dilation calculations.

Observation adds energy to the system -- energy that must be accounted for in the context of invariance. A Lorentz-like transformation at the microscale is self-similar to the transformation of large scale geometry, with the scale-dependent requirement that Planck's constant goes to zero. That leaves us with a strict boundary condition, [0,1), and the ability to analytically continue the spacetime field.

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by lkcl » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:46 am

jay, in confirmation of the parts about alpha being related to time-dilation: https://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/ ... nload/4917

also, in dr randell mill's work, he has a section covering special relativity corrections to the radius of the electron. the corrective factor: 1/2pi. ironicallly however even he treats the fine structure constant as... a constant :)

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by lkcl » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:48 am

Yablon wrote:
lkcl wrote:...
jay: a clue to follow up is to read Bracewell Chaper 12. the formula on page 241 (two-dimensional fourier transform) should be immediately recognised. it contains that all-familiar e^(-pi.xxxxx) as do the subsequent Hankel Transformations that Dr Mills successfully applies in GUTCP.

http://lkcl.net/reports/fine_structure_ ... Chap12.pdf

Luke, that link is not working. Thanks, Jay


working fine here, confirmed working, try again?

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by thray » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:56 am

Hi Jay,

Just a placeholder here, for further comment. I wrote the following reply to Jonathan Dickau on the FQXi blog:

Jonathan,

Einstein formulated general relativity in terms of Mach's mechanics. Because space plays no role in Mach, and spacetime in relativity is physically real, Einstein preserves Mach’s pure relativity of motion without giving up an absolutely local material rest frame.

This local gravitational relation can't be explained in terms of Mach's nonlocal mechanics, without the limit of special relativity. " ... E. Mach was led to make the attempt to eliminate space as an active cause in the system of mechanics. According to him, a material particle does not move in unaccelerated motion relatively to space, but relatively to the centre of all other masses in the universe; in this way, the series of causes of mechanical phenomena was closed, in contrast to the mechanics of Newton and Galileo. In order to develop this idea within the limits of the modern theory of action through a medium, the properties of the spacetime continuum that determine inertia must be regarded as field properties of space, analogous to the electromagnetic field." (“The General Theory,” in The Meaning of Relativity, fifth edition, Princeton University Press, 1956. p. 56)

We know that the electromagnetic field properties of a book and those of the table on which it rests, are many times stronger than the gravitational attraction between them. Inertia plays no apparent role. Yet the properties of the spacetime field itself, that determine inertia however weakly, also form the basis of Einstein's attempt at a unified field theory: " … the infinitesimal displacement field ... replaces the inertial system inasmuch as it makes it possible to compare vectors at infinitesimally close points." (Ibid,Appendix II, p. 142)

A tensor field framework for the unified theory failed. However, it is basic to Einstein that no space is empty of the field. No space, therefore, is empty of the time metric even at sub-Planck scale.

Jay Yablon has produced calculations that incorporate time dilation at that scale. In the Tower Wang paper (http://fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/1001.4965v2.pdf), the author writes: "In our formulation, the electromagnetic temperature could be negative. This looks bizarre. Especially, this impairs the physical significance of the formally thermodynamical interpretation. At first sight, one may avoid it by focusing on the systems with the same signature of charge. If there is no signature difference in charges, there will be no signature difference in temperatures, and then one can always choose a positive signature. However, in that situation we can only study the repulsive Coulomb force. When physically interpreting our mathematical formulation, the problem of negative temperature is confronted as a serious obstacle. The authors in [11] met the same problem when they try to accommodate inflation in the entropic force scenario. At the moment, we do not have a good solution to this problem. We hope there will be progress in the future."

The solution IMO, is simple time symmetry. Because we cannot distinguish entropy of the past from entropy of the future--consistent with special relativity--the electrodynamics of entropy locally will not differ in signature. Negative temperature is not the issue. Einstein already knew that by E^2 = M^2c^4 + (PC)^2 that any particle with calculable mass and zero momentum has to possess negative mass (therefore negative temperature, since temperature is the average momentum of a system's state of motion) any measureof the state of motion will be positive, since the measurement releases energy. Time dilation independent of scale would explain that cumulative release. (That's why I say E_0 = mc^2 is the equation of state for the entire universe.)

And the energy will be positive in every inertial frame. Where thermodynamic signatures will differ is in the radiation from bodies into space.

I am still studying Jay Yablon's equations, which look to me very promising. (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=280)

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Q-reeus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:22 am

lkcl wrote:...apologies to jay, but it's not easy, and it's not obvious, because the approach being taken by mainstream QCD (which jay is trying to replicate - apologies for pointing that out, jay) is completely wrong. if you examine dr randall mill's paper he explains that (just as jay does in a similar way) the electron g-factor is divided into several separate parts. what dr mills managed to do is: work out that those *are* entirely separate, and that they may be separated into entirely unrelated formula, then summed up. the sum therefore comprises *only four* terms, the first of which is "1.0", is incredibly simply, and comes ****EXACTLY***** repeat *****EXACTLY***** - i repeat again - ****EXACTLY**** to the current best-known experimentally-measured value for g/2.

the problem with the current approach being taken by mainstream QCD is that they attempt to use partial differentiation to calculate the (four) contributions all at once. using this (completely wrong) approach, when you *happen* to make some guesses and include a hell of a lot of postulation, you can pick some arbitrary magic constants that *happen* to give you the coefficients in the series, but there is absolutely ZERO real explanation for them. this should tell you everything that you need to know.

by contrast, dr mills has ALREADY BROKEN DOWN g/2 into its magnetic and electro-magnetic constituent parts, solved the equations from first principles based on low-level solutions to Maxwell's Equations, done the math and got the answer to within the current experimental uncertainty (somewhere around 11 to 12 d.p.)...

You are enamored with that long-term scam-artist? My opinion on some of RM's erroneous beliefs:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=241&sid=54f13b506b0ecff60fe7d14db0092736#p6227 (and further down that thread)
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51&p=5840#p5792 (and further down that thread)

Anyone with basic physics & engineering clues should soon realize just how hopelessly flawed as a technology is his latest blazing inferno incantation of 'boundless hydrino power' scheme. And that's allowing the underlying hydrino theory has a grain of truth to it.

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Ben6993 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:08 am

Hi Jay

This is all very exciting.

I hope I may put a few varied points in here some of which are not physics.
First, good luck with publishing the paper. I always enjoy reading your papers because it is like following an adventure story and I am tempted to think I understand things which I probably don't. However, that is not the case when I read other peoples' papers. Maybe you should be more ruthless in deleting/condensing everything that is available in another paper ... like other folks are ruthless. I have started to read a particular paper on the 3-3-1 SUSY model and I have next to read a number of others' papers first, even to get me as far as half way down page 1. Even better, you should write the long and full exciting papers, then later guillotine them ruthlessly right down to something under 20 pages for a journal. Just because journals like 20 page papers in preference to 60+ pages.

Luke wrote that his was a very unusual school - Stonyhurst College.
I once visited Stonyhurst College, Lancashire, on a guided tour. Saw the famous grafitti by Conan Doyle on his desk. Mostly I remember the story of the school's origins in France via RC exiles and returners about 400 years ago. I had just read a biography of John Donne before visiting the school and had read about a number of his immediate family who had fled to France in c1580s. So it all seemed relevant (though no school connection with Donne himself) . Also I had traced my paternal line back to c1550 at that time.

I keep mentioning my thoughts about the bosons effecting the gravitational and electric forces between particles. Perhaps I should say that I have difficulty in believing in the function of the graviton. In my preon model, I have worked out a preon structure for the graviton. So my doubts are not about the possibility of the existence of the graviton. My doubts are about mass acting as a "charge".

I am being kept away from physics by decorating and tiling the kitchen ...

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Yablon » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:25 am

lkcl wrote:...
jay: a clue to follow up is to read Bracewell Chaper 12. the formula on page 241 (two-dimensional fourier transform) should be immediately recognised. it contains that all-familiar e^(-pi.xxxxx) as do the subsequent Hankel Transformations that Dr Mills successfully applies in GUTCP.

http://lkcl.net/reports/fine_structure_ ... Chap12.pdf

Luke, that link is not working. Thanks, Jay

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by lkcl » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:56 am

Q-reeus wrote:No matter how well your theory may tally with known values for particle self-interactions such as anomalous g-factor for electron, given the explicit predicted coupling to external charge distributions, it's there you will need to experimentally show a consistent physics exists. Which as we have gone over in this and earlier threads, should be relatively easy and low tech once the obvious choice of 'clock(s)' is made.


apologies to jay, but it's not easy, and it's not obvious, because the approach being taken by mainstream QCD (which jay is trying to replicate - apologies for pointing that out, jay) is completely wrong. if you examine dr randall mill's paper he explains that (just as jay does in a similar way) the electron g-factor is divided into several separate parts. what dr mills managed to do is: work out that those *are* entirely separate, and that they may be separated into entirely unrelated formula, then summed up. the sum therefore comprises *only four* terms, the first of which is "1.0", is incredibly simply, and comes ****EXACTLY***** repeat *****EXACTLY***** - i repeat again - ****EXACTLY**** to the current best-known experimentally-measured value for g/2.

the problem with the current approach being taken by mainstream QCD is that they attempt to use partial differentiation to calculate the (four) contributions all at once. using this (completely wrong) approach, when you *happen* to make some guesses and include a hell of a lot of postulation, you can pick some arbitrary magic constants that *happen* to give you the coefficients in the series, but there is absolutely ZERO real explanation for them. this should tell you everything that you need to know.

by contrast, dr mills has ALREADY BROKEN DOWN g/2 into its magnetic and electro-magnetic constituent parts, solved the equations from first principles based on low-level solutions to Maxwell's Equations, done the math and got the answer to within the current experimental uncertainty (somewhere around 11 to 12 d.p.).

jay: a clue to follow up is to read Bracewell Chaper 12. the formula on page 241 (two-dimensional fourier transform) should be immediately recognised. it contains that all-familiar e^(-pi.xxxxx) as do the subsequent Hankel Transformations that Dr Mills successfully applies in GUTCP.

http://lkcl.net/reports/fine_structure_ ... Chap12.pdf

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Q-reeus » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:50 am

Yablon wrote:Also, Part III of my paper about the magnetic moment anomalies uses these to show that proof of this time dilation is already built in to the anomalies; the anomalies prove time dilation and are proportionate to the time dilation factor minus 1, see (13.16) and (14.1) of http://vixra.org/pdf/1609.0387v1.pdf. I have in effect proposed using the electron itself as a clock because it is already naturally charged and very light. And I have shown shown that when one does so, the time dilation is one plus the anomaly, .

Jay,
No matter how well your theory may tally with known values for particle self-interactions such as anomalous g-factor for electron, given the explicit predicted coupling to external charge distributions, it's there you will need to experimentally show a consistent physics exists. Which as we have gone over in this and earlier threads, should be relatively easy and low tech once the obvious choice of 'clock(s)' is made. Of course, electrons, 'on their own' or as part of atoms/molecules, cannot be beat re enormity and precisely known charge-to-mass ratio, perfect repeatability.

Has your presumably finalized paper been submitted to a journal yet?
Under and the the left of where you submit replies (save draft, preview, submit buttons) there are five boxes than can be checked. One says "Notify me when a reply is posted."

Right, thanks for tip. Never bothered to notice such given my personal preferences have from the start been set to include just that. But see it is ticked anyway. Did get notified of your above post - without doing anything differently when last responding this thread. Go figure. No big deal - pays to just look in from time to time anyway.

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Yablon » Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:10 pm

Q-reeus wrote:Jay,
What kind of clock? Mechanical oscillator (e.g. spring-flywheel), phase-locked crystal oscillator (e.g. digital watch), atomic clock e.g. Cesium, other?
...discussion about different clocks...

Kevin,
I very deliberately use the term "geometrodynamic clock" because such a clock is discussed widely in the literature. See e.g. section 16.4 for Misner, Wheeler, Thorne's (MTW) Gravitation. I have no plan to reinvent the wheel (or the clock) :D . I will leave it to people on the experimental side to a) understand that we need a "good clock" as MTW and others lay that out, and b) figure out the best such clock to use given that one needs to charge the clock. As I did point out, we do want such a clock to be as light-as-possible because the EM time dilation varies inversely with the mass. And I gave several scenarios for establishing necessary experimental "controls."

Also, Part III of my paper about the magnetic moment anomalies uses these to show that proof of this time dilation is already built in to the anomalies; the anomalies prove time dilation and are proportionate to the time dilation factor minus 1, see (13.16) and (14.1) of http://vixra.org/pdf/1609.0387v1.pdf. I have in effect proposed using the electron itself as a clock because it is already naturally charged and very light. And I have shown shown that when one does so, the time dilation is one plus the anomaly, .

Jay
Q-reeus wrote:PS - once again, I was cut out of email notification re response to my previous post this thread!]

Under and the the left of where you submit replies (save draft, preview, submit buttons) there are five boxes than can be checked. One says "Notify me when a reply is posted."

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Q-reeus » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:18 pm

Yablon wrote:1) Take a neutral material body A that we can call a geometrodynamic clock insofar as it is emitting periodic signals. Place it in an external potential. Use another "lab clock" to track the signals from A, which to say, use a device that can record the color/frequency of light emitted by A. Then, simply charge up A with as much charge as you can get to stick, and see if the signals from A are redshifting slightly. The theory predicts time will dilate because of the self-repulsion within clock A, so this result would prove that, qualitatively.

2) Charge clock A and put it at a distance r from the source of the (point charge, Coulomb) potential. Measure the frequency of the signals from A. Then, without changing anything else, move the clock to 2r. The time dilation (over and above ) should be cut in half. Then move the clock to r/2. The time dilation over and above 1 should double. This would be a quantitative proof. Other variations would include doubling and halving the charge on the clock and showing a proportionate change in the time dilation over and above 1.

In all cases, the clock we charge up should be as light as possible because the magnitude of the time dilation effect grows inversely to the rest mass. Which you can think of as the inertial mass "resisting" the time dilation in a Newtonian a=F/m acceleration sense.

Jay,
What kind of clock? Mechanical oscillator (e.g. spring-flywheel), phase-locked crystal oscillator (e.g. digital watch), atomic clock e.g. Cesium, other?

How would one meaningfully be able to charge up any of those types? Electrostatics ensures any added charge will move to the outer extremities in order to form an equi-potential environment. It's not possible to 'paint' charge uniformly onto a desired part(s) - say the flywheel in first option above. That means the net effect will be to induce appreciable electrostatic stresses between watch components. Which no doubt would effect clock-rate, and probably by many orders of magnitude greater than any hoped for purely electrodynamic effect. Further, the charge distribution would be complex and unlikely to 'paint' desired components in anything like the way hoped for.

I believe the ideal 'clock' has been proposed in that other thread - ionized atomic/molecular spectral lines - i.e. gas discharge lamp. Place such a lamp within a Faraday cage, and one completely avoids any issue with overwhelmingly larger effect from very difficult to calculate electrostatic stresses. Orbital electrons provide the ideal 'charged clock' - enormous charge-to-mass ratio, coupled with easy and accurate to measure optical frequencies generated in a very precise and frequency stable manner.

One disadvantage of a discharge lamp is spectral spread owing to the thermal motions, so an even better option would be to measure absorption lines of a test sample within the cage. You need small windows in order to inject and receive reflection/transmission from an incident, frequency stable laser beam. No big deal to do that. Now all that is needed is to vary the electrostatic potential of the Faraday cage. Look for any spectral shifts. You know my position on what to expect. At any rate, a very doable exercise, with none of the (likely fatal) disadvantages of 'charging up' a macroscopic clock.

[PS - once again, I was cut out of email notification re response to my previous post this thread!]

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Yablon » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:29 am

lkcl wrote:jay, i spoke to an engineering friend of mine: he says that the experiment, when it is carried out, may actually need to either be done in space, or at the north or south magnetic pole, *OR* that it may be necessary to use one of the machines that he is aware of which creates magnetic zero-point fields (a fancy word for saying that it measures the magnetic field then uses magnetic coils to counter-balance the detected fields so that they are all zero).

Hi Luke,

Glad to see you on our forum. Actually, the two simplest macroscopic experiments I can envision, because they obviate the need for calibrating two separate clocks, are the following:

1) Take a neutral material body A that we can call a geometrodynamic clock insofar as it is emitting periodic signals. Place it in an external potential. Use another "lab clock" to track the signals from A, which to say, use a device that can record the color/frequency of light emitted by A. Then, simply charge up A with as much charge as you can get to stick, and see if the signals from A are redshifting slightly. The theory predicts time will dilate because of the self-repulsion within clock A, so this result would prove that, qualitatively.

2) Charge clock A and put it at a distance r from the source of the (point charge, Coulomb) potential. Measure the frequency of the signals from A. Then, without changing anything else, move the clock to 2r. The time dilation (over and above ) should be cut in half. Then move the clock to r/2. The time dilation over and above 1 should double. This would be a quantitative proof. Other variations would include doubling and halving the charge on the clock and showing a proportionate change in the time dilation over and above 1.

In all cases, the clock we charge up should be as light as possible because the magnitude of the time dilation effect grows inversely to the rest mass. Which you can think of as the inertial mass "resisting" the time dilation in a Newtonian a=F/m acceleration sense.

Jay

Re: Classical and Quantum Geometro-electrodynamics

Post by Yablon » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:14 am

Q-reeus wrote:
Yablon wrote:Hi Jay,
Where do you obtain that position from? Above is afaik actually the opposite of standard position in the 'dressed' approach. Which is that the bare mass of a notional point electron is infinite (divergent self-field energy density and total energy as r -> 0), with the observed i.e. dressed mass far less than the former. See e.g.
http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~neum/physf ... ctron.html
But I notice different attitudes to the 'dressed' formulation:
https://meopemuk2.blogspot.com/2006/07/ ... ch-to.html
Anyway, a classical analogy to 'dressed electron' is the electrostatic energy of a parallel plate capacitor in vacuo vs with a dielectric medium added. For fixed 'bare' plate charge, adding the dielectric 'dresses' the plates and reduces the net field energy by factor 1/k. Compensated for by the mechanical energy gain when inserting the dielectric. In the electron case, virtual particle dressing must become highly nonlinear at small r such as to increase the effective dielectric constant of quantum vacuum.

Hi Kevin,

In the first link you provide, note the statement about 60% of the way down as to one reference:
the link from Kevin wrote: In QED, things are analogous, though significantly more complex. Again the dressed electron state is stable and has trivial scattering behavior since there is no way to decay into other products without violating charge or 4-momentum conservation. Again, the dressing is generated by perturbation theory from undressed point particles satisfying the free Dirac and Maxwell equations.
This is the case even in the nice, infinity-free treatment of QED in
G. Scharf, Finite Quantum Electrodynamics: The Causal Approach, 2nd ed. Springer, New York 1995.
The difference of the treatment there to the usual treatment lies solely in the fact that he uses point particles with the physical masses and charges to start the perturbation theory, while the standard approach begins with bare particles of infinite mass and charge that are made finite only in a mathematically questionable renormalization procedure.

I am doing the same thing as that author Scharf, i.e., using an infinity-free treatment with point particles with the physical masses and charges to start the perturbation theory. But I would agree that I should clarify that, and will do so. I think I will also add Scharf as a reference, so I thank you for binging that to my attention.

Jay

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