Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theorem

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Heinera » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:51 am

Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:I do not agree with this conclusion. To be sure, the bound on the CHSH correlator is trivially 2, as George Boole pointed out one hundred and eleven years before Bell's paper. But that bound has absolutely nothing to do with physics. It is purely a mathematically trivial fiction. Bell simply blundered very badly. He made the same blunder he ridiculed von Neumann for making. :(
.

Yadayada. Here we have the simplest physical situation possible, an urn with some paper slips in it. Before I go on I just want to know if @minkwe agrees that in this experiment the upper bound is 2.

You can keep on making stupid comments. That does not change the fact that the urn model is pure fiction. It has nothing to do with how the experiments are done. Bell blundered. Period.
.

Yadayadayada. Before I go on I just want to know if @minkwe agrees that in this experiment the upper bound is 2.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby minkwe » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:37 am

Oh I realize that Heinera may be expecting me to answer his posts. Unfortunately(or fortunately) I don't see them for obvious reasons. Others can respond.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Heinera » Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:00 pm

minkwe wrote:Oh I realize that Heinera may be expecting me to answer his posts. Unfortunately(or fortunately) I don't see them for obvious reasons. Others can respond.

Well, that was a cute way to avoid answering the question... ;-)
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Heinera » Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:50 pm

And let me just add that the Bell deniers simply hate the urn model. It's such a simple model, which obviously has an upper bound of 2 even in minkwe's scenario 1, thus disproving his thesis that every experiment in scenario 1 has an upper bound of 4. If anyone claims that the upper bound for the urn model is actually 4, it is just a simple matter of asking them to demonstrate which distribution of the 16 different paper slips they would put in the urn to achieve a result greater than 2. Of course they can't come up with such a distribution.

Also, if they actually do agree that the bound is two, the next step is to ask them "OK, how do you prove it"? The process of generating a proof should be an eye opener for them.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby minkwe » Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:40 pm

Justo wrote: is the mean of a long series of joint measurements by Alice and Bob with setting a_i and b_k, each made on different entangled particles generated on the same event.
Freedom means that , if you do not assume that, the derivation cannot go through. It should be very simple and obvious.

I don't think you got the point. There are only 4 expectation values that are measured in the Bell-test experiment. When Alice and Bob measure . The settings are constant, and their average is a constant for which QM has a specific prediction of

As we already agreed, each of those expectation values is obtained from a different set of particle pairs in the singlet state. Therefore there is nothing about one set that influences the other set in any way. The only requirement is that each set of pairs is in the singlet state. Therefore the freedom of Alice and Bob is irrelevant for the expectation value and is completely superfluous. Perhaps what you are calling freedom is not really freedom because it has nothing to do with the freedom of Alice and Bob. Maybe I should ask you the question another way: Alice and Bob's freedom to do what? Certainly not in picking settings because the settings are constant as already explained. So what do you mean by freedom?

Let us explore that question by continuing with Justo's paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.00343.pdf, let's look at equation (8).


First, this expression is misleading as the settings are constants so I will simplify as follows without any loss of meaning,


But there is another problem with this expression: We mentioned that the expression pertains to 4 different sets of particle pairs. Therefore this should be corrected as follows:



With the above clarification, the expression now correctly captures the mathematics of the Bell test experiments which Justo's equation 8 did not. This is the proper starting point for doing any derivation of any Bell inequality. It is very easy to make hidden assumptions by using sloppy notation and Bell did plenty of that.

Note that is an expression in which we are doing arithmetic with functions, not plain numbers. And there is a very important mathematical restriction that applies when we do this type of arithmetic:
1. is only defined for the common part of the domain of all the functions. That is, it is only defined for (see Gill & Larsson for an alternative a treatment of this point) . Given that are random variables it is unlikely that they will be the same but let us grant that for a very large number of measurements they will almost be the same. This assumption has nothing to do with freedom. It is an assumption of fair sampling.
2. Let me burst the bubble of anyone who was tempted to think that the above assumption resolves all the problems. There is a bigger problem. We don't just have the addition of functions above, we have the addition of products of functions which we eventually factorize! This means not only do the domains have to match, but the ordering also has to match too ( ). You can visualize it by considering each function as a 2xN spreadsheet where column 1 contains the elements of the domain of the function and column 2 contains the corresponding output of the function (the images).

The factorization
involves an implicit assumption that , which means the rows of the two spreadsheets and have to be rearranged so that the columns 1 & columns 2 are practically identical between the two spreadsheets. But note that the second requirement above means that Column 1 on spreadsheet must always match Column 1 on spreadsheet . Therefore any permutations we apply to must also be applied to for the above factorization to be permissible.

The same thing applies to the second factorization where we imply that . Now, to complete the derivation, 2 additional assumptions are required, that
and also that . In each of these assumptions, the same requirements for being able to rearrange the spreadsheets applies. But we immediately run into problems. We can't rearrange without breaking the earlier requirement since we already rearranged it when we tried to make agree with . Any changes will disrupt the agreement and forbid factorization. Same thing applies to .

Again it is very important to note that the fair sampling assumption (which we've granted in restriction 1, only says the probability distribution of values in Column 1 is the same for all the 8 spreadsheets. It says nothing about the ordering of those values. Therefore the Fair sampling assumption does nothing to resolve the real problem. Secondly, you will notice that freedom is not involved in this discussion. Again I ask: Freedom to do what?

Let us pretend that what I just demonstrated was not the case. Let us pretend that as soon as the first two permutations are done, then all the pairs of spreadsheets that need to be rearranged will automatically match and we won't have any problems. I'm sure there are those who believe such a ridiculous idea but for the sake of argument, let us evaluate it for a moment. It would mean that at the end of the day, there are effectively only 4 2xN spreadsheets with identical Column 1 on all the spreadsheets. In other words, it would mean that there are only 4 functions with exactly the same domain in the experiments. And it would mean, the four Column 2s can be combined into a single 4xN spreadsheet of outcomes. Now, where have we seen a 4xN spreadsheet of outcomes? Oh, that's my scenarios 3 & 4 which Justo calls "tautological" and meaningless.

So there is no escape, the conclusion is obvious:
- The mathematical operations involved in the derivation of Bell's inequality make assumptions that are false.
- But even if we grant that those assumptions aren't false, the assumptions imply that the data can be combined into a 4xN spreadsheet, a scenario for which QM does not predict a violation.
- Freedom to do what?
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Justo » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:01 pm

minkwe wrote:I don't think you got the point. There are only 4 expectation values that are measured in the Bell-test experiment. When Alice and Bob measure . The settings are constant, and their average is a constant for which QM has a specific prediction of

As we already agreed, each of those expectation values is obtained from a different set of particle pairs in the singlet state. Therefore there is nothing about one set that influences the other set in any way. The only requirement is that each set of pairs is in the singlet state.

Absolutely, I don't know why you think I disagree with this.

minkwe wrote:Therefore the freedom of Alice and Bob is irrelevant for the expectation value and is completely superfluous. Perhaps what you are calling freedom is not really freedom because it has nothing to do with the freedom of Alice and Bob. Maybe I should ask you the question another way: Alice and Bob's freedom to do what? Certainly not in picking settings because the settings are constant as already explained. So what do you mean by freedom?


This puts in evidence that you do not understand Bell's derivation. What is called freedom is also known as "no conspiracy" and is equivalent to what is called the "Measurement independence" hypothesis. All those are names for what is mathematically expressed as .
Of course, you can perform the experiment without that hypothesis. You can also calculate the QM prediction without it, but you cannot derive the Bell inequality without assuming it.
It is fair to say that in Bell's 1964 derivation, measurement independence was implicitly assumed. Only later it was justified by physical assumptions that can be interpreted as the "freedom of the experimenters" to chose their settings. Perhaps a more appropriate expression is "no conspiracy" to use a less anthropomorphic expression given that settings can be randomly chosen through some random mechanism.

minkwe wrote:Let us explore that question by continuing with Justo's paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.00343.pdf, let's look at equation (8).


First, this expression is misleading as the settings are constants so I will simplify as follows without any loss of meaning,



Calling an expression misleading because you don't like the notation is a highly subjective opinion.

minkwe wrote:But there is another problem with this expression: We mentioned that the expression pertains to 4 different sets of particle pairs. Therefore this should be corrected as follows:



With the above clarification, the expression now correctly captures the mathematics of the Bell test experiments which Justo's equation 8 did not. This is the proper starting point for doing any derivation of any Bell inequality. It is very easy to make hidden assumptions by using sloppy notation and Bell did plenty of that.


Absolutely, that is exactly what I explain in my paper https://doi.org/10.1007/s10701-017-0063-x. A correct way(not the only one) to start the derivation is your previous equation. My equation (8) you mentioned earlier is a consequence of elementary arithmetic rules applied on the correct initial expression. We have a complete agreement on these last points and that is exactly what I explain in "On the CHSH Form of Bell's Inequalities".
The sloppy notation, however, cannot be attributed to John Bell but to those who misinterpret his very elementary derivations and reproduce them in an incorrect form.

The derivation I explain in the paper that you are basing your interpretation(https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.00343.pdf) is likely to be misunderstood by people who already misunderstand Bell's original derivations.
We have come up (with my co-author) with a derivation that we, perhaps naively, believe is impossible to misunderstand. It is in section 4 under the title "Making Sense of Bell's Derivation" of this paper https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.10238

Dear @mikwe I already gave up this discussion long ego. However, you wanted to continue and I appreciate that. It was hotly debated without unnecessary personal attacks and it was nice.
Justo
 

Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby minkwe » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:03 pm

Justo wrote:
minkwe wrote:I don't think you got the point. There are only 4 expectation values that are measured in the Bell-test experiment. When Alice and Bob measure . The settings are constant, and their average is a constant for which QM has a specific prediction of

As we already agreed, each of those expectation values is obtained from a different set of particle pairs in the singlet state. Therefore there is nothing about one set that influences the other set in any way. The only requirement is that each set of pairs is in the singlet state.

Absolutely, I don't know why you think I disagree with this.

The text you replied to stated that we agreed on it.

minkwe wrote:Therefore the freedom of Alice and Bob is irrelevant for the expectation value and is completely superfluous. Perhaps what you are calling freedom is not really freedom because it has nothing to do with the freedom of Alice and Bob. Maybe I should ask you the question another way: Alice and Bob's freedom to do what? Certainly not in picking settings because the settings are constant as already explained. So what do you mean by freedom?


This puts in evidence that you do not understand Bell's derivation.

I understand Bell's derivation very well, thank you. Are you suggesting that Bell's derivation will fail if Alice and Bob were not free to choose settings if the settings were fixed or chosen for them in advance and all they had to do was execute the instructions? I'm not sure you have thought about this carefully because Bell's derivation will be exactly the same and the reason is that "freedom" does not play any mathematical role in the derivation.

What you are calling "freedom" is more correctly known as the "Fair Sampling Assumption" and it has nothing to do with Freedom.


What is called freedom is also known as "no conspiracy" and is equivalent to what is called the "Measurement independence" hypothesis. All those are names for what is mathematically expressed as .

I invite you to think if a conspiracy that if implemented will prevent Bell's derivation from proceeding. Or a "measurement dependence" scheme that will result in Bell's derivation not following through. You will quickly realize that any such scheme must enter the inequality derivation by preventing the probability distributions of the hidden variables from being the same from one experiment to the next. In other words, those are all superfluous and the real assumption is one of Fair sampling. All you are saying is that measurement dependence and conspiracy can result in unfair samples. However, freedom is different because you can't come up with a way for lack of freedom to result in unfair samples. Freedom is a superfluous subject as far as Bell's derivation is concerned and I've explained why.

Of course, you can perform the experiment without that hypothesis. You can also calculate the QM prediction without it, but you cannot derive the Bell inequality without assuming it.

You can't derive Bell's inequality without a Fair Sampling assumption. But you can derive it without Freedom. That's my point.


It is fair to say that in Bell's 1964 derivation, measurement independence was implicitly assumed. Only later it was justified by physical assumptions that can be interpreted as the "freedom of the experimenters" to chose their settings.

As I've already explained, this is a common claim but it is superfluous. Bell's sloppy notation is part of the reason why he overlooked it. He used the same notation to represent two different random variables and therefore did not realize that when he factored the term out, he was introducing another assumption. But as I've explained, it's not just the "Fair sampling" assumption that he made. He made an additional assumption that the data can be re-ordered to match. An assumption that is false.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby gill1109 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:31 pm

minkwe wrote:
Justo wrote:What is called freedom is also known as "no conspiracy" and is equivalent to what is called the "Measurement independence" hypothesis. All those are names for what is mathematically expressed as

I invite you to think if a conspiracy that if implemented will prevent Bell's derivation from proceeding. Or a "measurement dependence" scheme that will result in Bell's derivation not following through. You will quickly realize that any such scheme must enter the inequality derivation by preventing the probability distributions of the hidden variables from being the same from one experiment to the next. In other words, those are all superfluous and the real assumption is one of Fair sampling. All you are saying is that measurement dependence and conspiracy can result in unfair samples. However, freedom is different because you can't come up with a way for lack of freedom to result in unfair samples. Freedom is a superfluous subject as far as Bell's derivation is concerned and I've explained why.

It is not difficult to think of schemes that prevent Bell's derivation from proceeding. Michel did that himself in his two simulation models. As a very new example, take a look at Fred Diether's recent Mathematica code. He has a computer simulation model which produces data which matches the singlet correlations very well. It works by what he calls matching, a procedure whereby Alice or Bob's outcome is given a "quaternionic sign flip", depending (all other things being equal) on the other's setting. Michel, you might like it, since Fred and Joy have incorporated elements from your own simulation models in their own model. It is published on ResearchGate and Mathematica notebooks can be downloaded from Wolfram World. Justo, take a look too. It's a beautiful example.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby FrediFizzx » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:44 pm

@gill1109 We are just emulating he quaternion sign changes in the model and they don't always occur with the others setting change. At this point we don't yet know what they actually depend on. But we certainly aim to find out. Perhaps Michel has a clue or two? But for now they are a consequence of matching trial numbers of certain events.
.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby minkwe » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:58 pm

Justo wrote:It is in section 4 under the title "Making Sense of Bell's Derivation" of this paper https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.10238


I've seen that paper. Please explain how you go from equation (24) to equation (26). You've glossed over very important steps. I notice that your equation (29) is still incompletely specified. As written, it does not represent a proper Bell test. There should be 8 functions in equation (29) not 4. You do not explain how you arrived at just 4 functions instead of the 8 random variables actually measured in such experiments.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby minkwe » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:03 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:@gill1109 We are just emulating he quaternion sign changes in the model and they don't always occur with the others setting change. At this point we don't yet know what they actually depend on. But we certainly aim to find out. Perhaps Michel has a clue or two? But for now they are a consequence of matching trial numbers of certain events.
.

Hey Fred, I've not looked at the simulation in any detail so unfortunately I don't have any immediate clues.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby gill1109 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:43 pm

minkwe wrote:
Justo wrote: is the mean of a long series of joint measurements by Alice and Bob with setting a_i and b_k, each made on different entangled particles generated on the same event.
Freedom means that , if you do not assume that, the derivation cannot go through. It should be very simple and obvious.

I don't think you got the point. There are only 4 expectation values that are measured in the Bell-test experiment. When Alice and Bob measure . The settings are constant, and their average is a constant for which QM has a specific prediction of

As we already agreed, each of those expectation values is obtained from a different set of particle pairs in the singlet state. Therefore there is nothing about one set that influences the other set in any way. The only requirement is that each set of pairs is in the singlet state. Therefore the freedom of Alice and Bob is irrelevant for the expectation value and is completely superfluous. Perhaps what you are calling freedom is not really freedom because it has nothing to do with the freedom of Alice and Bob. Maybe I should ask you the question another way: Alice and Bob's freedom to do what? Certainly not in picking settings because the settings are constant as already explained. So what do you mean by freedom?

Let us explore that question by continuing with Justo's paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.00343.pdf, let's look at equation (8).


This equation is not misleading. It depends on a physical assumption, namely equation (1). This equation denotes the prediction, under a local hidden variables model, of the correlation between Alice and Bob's outcomes for given settings. After this follows some simple and correct mathematics, leading to the prediction, under that model, that the four correlations we are talking about would satisfy a particular inequality. Quantum mechanics is another theoretical framework. Under the assumptions of a certain quantum state and certain quantum measurements, one can also derive four correlations, and verify that they violate the inequality.

Conclusion: QM and LR (local realism) are incompatible theoretical frameworks.

Experiments have been done which, under extremely stringent conditions, result in four empirical correlations, which also turned out to violate the inequality, in a statistically significant way. The experimental conditions were such as to exclude any known and in principle avoidable loopholes. Unavoidable loopholes such as retro-causality and super-determinism remain viable, of course, but to most people, they are felt to be extremely unattractive and implausible. Moreover, allowing them destroys the possibility of learning about the physical world by doing experiments.

Conclusion: LR does not describe reality.

A rather nice paper by Gu et al. https://arxiv.org/abs/1808.06863 shows that the data of the four famous and so-called loophole-free experiments of 2015 are very well described by QM and utterly badly by LR.

"Local realism" is a metaphysical position on the nature of reality. It is conventionally encoded mathematically, with regard to Bell type experiments, under the term "local hidden variables". LHV ensures CFD (counterfactual definiteness).
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby minkwe » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:42 am

gill1109 wrote:This equation is not misleading. It depends on a physical assumption, namely equation (1). This equation denotes the prediction, under a local hidden variables model, of the correlation between Alice and Bob's outcomes for given settings. After this follows some simple and correct mathematics, leading to the prediction, under that model, that the four correlations we are talking about would satisfy a particular inequality. Quantum mechanics is another theoretical framework. Under the assumptions of a certain quantum state and certain quantum measurements, one can also derive four correlations, and verify that they violate the inequality.


Richard, unfortunately, you do not understand the issue so everything you say above is just a proclamation without foundation.
The reason there are 8 random variables in the experiment is that there are 8 independent streams of measurements. If Justo claims that the properly represents a Bell test, then we should start from an equation that has 8 random variables, or 8 functions. His equation has only 4.

Now, nothing prevents you from starting with 8, and then introducing additional assumptions to allow the 8 to be reduced to 4. But that is not what any of you ever do. You jump straight to 4.

Therefore unless you are about to explain in detail why you are allowed to go from 8 functions to 4, what you say above is meaningless. I already explained in my previous post that the Fair Sampling assumption is not enough to permit that reduction. There is absolutely nothing about local realism that allows you to perform that reduction since the analysis I presented relies ONLY on being able to rearrange and recombine numbers on a spreadsheet. Mathematically, it is impossible to do the reduction, irrespective of any physical assumption that you impose. If you think I'm wrong, provide a detailed explanation of how the assumptions allow you to avoid the issue I've identified in this post viewtopic.php?f=6&t=482&start=100#p13917
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Justo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:19 am

minkwe wrote:
Justo wrote:It is in section 4 under the title "Making Sense of Bell's Derivation" of this paper https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.10238


I've seen that paper. Please explain how you go from equation (24) to equation (26). You've glossed over very important steps.

From (23) to (24): rules of arithmetic( associative and distributive properties)
From (24) to (26): by taking absolute values and applying its properties

minkwe wrote:I notice that your equation (29) is still incompletely specified. As written, it does not represent a proper Bell test.

That is right, as written it does not directly represent any experiment but its values represent results of real experiments. Equation (23) directly represents the results of the experiments

minkwe wrote: There should be 8 functions in equation (29) not 4.

Not after applying the arithmetic rules and properties. That is why mathematics is useful and engineers and physicists study mathematics.

minkwe wrote:You do not explain how you arrived at just 4 functions instead of the 8 random variables actually measured in such experiments.

Yes, I do. It is mathematically explained in equations in steps from eq. (23) through (28). It is very elementary mathematics that any first-year college student can deal with and interpret.


Dear @minkew let us, at least, agree on this: "If we do not accept that a physically meaningful mathematical expression like eq. (23) can be transformed according to mathematical rules and whatever it is that we do, an expression with only 4 values like eq. (29) is not acceptable, then we cannot derive the Bell inequality."
However, according to this reasoning, we must also trash the most basic rules of arithmetic along with the Bell theorem.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Heinera » Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:37 am

Even the Bell deniers usually agree that the CHSH urn experiment (described here) has an upper bound of 2. The question is, how would they prove it, without making the same mistake they claim Bell did? Any takers?
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Justo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:10 am

Heinera wrote:Even the Bell deniers usually agree that the CHSH urn experiment (described here) has an upper bound of 2. The question is, how would they prove it, without making the same mistake they claim Bell did? Any takers?

I can easily derive a bound 2 for this experiment using CFD. Of course, the result would be meaningless and I don't even understand the experiment. Are there two urns? one for Alice and one for Bob.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Heinera » Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:38 am

Justo wrote:
Heinera wrote:Even the Bell deniers usually agree that the CHSH urn experiment (described here) has an upper bound of 2. The question is, how would they prove it, without making the same mistake they claim Bell did? Any takers?

I can easily derive a bound 2 for this experiment using CFD. Of course, the result would be meaningless and I don't even understand the experiment. Are there two urns? one for Alice and one for Bob.

There is one urn. For each trial, they both use the same slip of paper, but Alice picks from the two values on the left, and Bob from the two values on the right.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Justo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:36 am

Heinera wrote:
Justo wrote:
Heinera wrote:Even the Bell deniers usually agree that the CHSH urn experiment (described here) has an upper bound of 2. The question is, how would they prove it, without making the same mistake they claim Bell did? Any takers?

I can easily derive a bound 2 for this experiment using CFD. Of course, the result would be meaningless and I don't even understand the experiment. Are there two urns? one for Alice and one for Bob.

There is one urn. For each trial, they both use the same slip of paper, but Alice picks from the two values on the left, and Bob from the two values on the right.

Sorry, I still do not understand. Alice tosses a fair coin and then chooses from an urn that contains two values, +1 and -1. After choosing her value she puts back the slip on the urn and now Bob does the same as Alice. Is that it?
If what I said is correct and all probabilities are fifty-fifty and independent the theoretical bound should be 0, I guess. What's the catch?
In the case that she does not return the slip in the urn before Bob makes his choice, the probabilities are not independent and we have perfect correlations, in this case

In the first case the is no issues with locality and in the second case the hidden variable would the slip of paper.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no problem recognizing my mistakes, otherwise, you never learn.
Justo
 

Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby Heinera » Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:51 am

Justo wrote:Sorry, I still do not understand. Alice tosses a fair coin and then chooses from an urn that contains two values, +1 and -1. After choosing her value she puts back the slip on the urn and now Bob does the same as Alice. Is that it?

No, they both toss fair coins (one for each), which tells them if they should record the first or the second number in their pair on the slip. Then they together draw a slip from the urn. If the slip contains e.g. [-1, -1, +1, -1], then Alice records one of -1 or -1 (the two first) depending on her coin toss (in this example the values are the same, so the coin toss doesn't matter), and Bob records one of +1 or -1 (the two last) depending on the outcome of his coin toss.
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Re: Institutionalized Denial of the Disproof of Bell's Theor

Postby gill1109 » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:47 am

minkwe wrote:
gill1109 wrote:This equation is not misleading. It depends on a physical assumption, namely equation (1). This equation denotes the prediction, under a local hidden variables model, of the correlation between Alice and Bob's outcomes for given settings. After this follows some simple and correct mathematics, leading to the prediction, under that model, that the four correlations we are talking about would satisfy a particular inequality. Quantum mechanics is another theoretical framework. Under the assumptions of a certain quantum state and certain quantum measurements, one can also derive four correlations, and verify that they violate the inequality.


Richard, unfortunately, you do not understand the issue so everything you say above is just a proclamation without foundation.
The reason there are 8 random variables in the experiment is that there are 8 independent streams of measurements. If Justo claims that the properly represents a Bell test, then we should start from an equation that has 8 random variables, or 8 functions. His equation has only 4.

Now, nothing prevents you from starting with 8, and then introducing additional assumptions to allow the 8 to be reduced to 4. But that is not what any of you ever do. You jump straight to 4.

Therefore unless you are about to explain in detail why you are allowed to go from 8 functions to 4, what you say above is meaningless. I already explained in my previous post that the Fair Sampling assumption is not enough to permit that reduction. There is absolutely nothing about local realism that allows you to perform that reduction since the analysis I presented relies ONLY on being able to rearrange and recombine numbers on a spreadsheet. Mathematically, it is impossible to do the reduction, irrespective of any physical assumption that you impose. If you think I'm wrong, provide a detailed explanation of how the assumptions allow you to avoid the issue I've identified in this post viewtopic.php?f=6&t=482&start=100#p13917

In real present-day Bell experiments there are four streams of binary data, matched by belonging to matched pairs of time-slots. A binary input for Alice’s lab, a binary output from Alice’s lab, a binary input for Bob’s lab, and a binary output from Bob’s lab.
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