GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:54 am

FrediFizzx wrote:Sorry, but that doesn't look at all like what Gull wrote in number (3). Doesn't seem to relate very much to the EPR setup either. And..., what is "u" in your first equation? Please define everything.
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Fred, we've already been through (1) and (2), precisely in order to show how it relates to a faithful *computer simulation* (assuming local realism) of the EPR-Bohm setup.

Capital U is a random angle. Small u is a possible realisation thereof.

Gull writes "FT(...)". I just put a tilde on top of the ..., instead, to denote "the Fourier transform of the specified function".

Please review the convolution theorem. I gave you a link to a decent Wikipedia article about it, but I'm sure you must have learnt that stuff Once Upon a Time in the West.

BTW Joy posted something scathing about Wikipedia. If there are important Wikipedia articles which are badly wrong, he should edit them. It's no good just standing on the side-line making sarcastic comments.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:29 pm

Here is what Gull's number (3) looks like to me,



If that is correct, please define FT(p) and (mp2). Please don't add a bunch of rambling nonsense. And..., it looks like to me that Correlation of two of these will equal 0 or +1.
.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:11 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:Here is what Gull's number (3) looks like to me,



If that is correct, please define FT(p) and (mp2). Please don't add a bunch of rambling nonsense. And..., it looks like to me that Correlation of two of these will equal 0 or +1.
.

(MP2) is a reference. Computer programming project, second part of specs. (MP = maths project?)

First part is the stuff about separate computers, the two synchronized dialogues, no use of past inputs and no communication; second partis that we must create the cosine function.

You know of course that the inverse Fourier transform is the Fouriert ransform itself? (If you define it the right way so that it’s normalised - it’s an L2 isometric, and it’s idempotent, in fancy words). So he could also have written (but he forgot the minus sign)
FT(correlation) = - |FT(p)|^2

I wrote out the formula for the correlation of the two computer outputs, when they are used like I told you (completely random inputs, look at pairs of outputs when pairs of inputs differ by theta).

How those correlations can look like, you can find here https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6403

The triangle wave versus the cosine: How classical systems can optimally approximate EPR-B correlations

Richard D. Gill
The famous singlet correlations of a composite quantum system consisting of two spatially separated components exhibit notable features of two kinds. The first kind consists of striking certainty relations: perfect correlation and perfect anti-correlation in certain settings. The second kind consists of a number of symmetries, in particular, invariance under rotation, as well as invariance under exchange of components, parity, or chirality. In this note, I investigate the class of correlation functions that can be generated by classical composite physical systems when we restrict attention to systems which reproduce the certainty relations exactly, and for which the rotational invariance of the correlation function is the manifestation of rotational invariance of the underlying classical physics. I call such correlation functions classical EPR-B correlations. It turns out that the other three (binary) symmetries can then be obtained "for free": they are exhibited by the correlation function, and can be imposed on the underlying physics by adding an underlying randomisation level. We end up with a simple probabilistic description of all possible classical EPR-B correlations in terms of a "spinning coloured disk" model, and a research programme: describe these functions in a concise analytic way. We survey open problems, and we show that the widespread idea that "quantum correlations are more extreme than classical physics allows" is at best highly inaccurate, through giving a concrete example of a classical correlation which satisfies all the symmetries and all the certainty relations and which exceeds the quantum correlations over a whole range of settings
Comments: This version, arXiv:1312.6403v.6, as accepted by "Entropy" 27 February 2020

https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/3/287

Nice pictures!
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:46 pm


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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:56 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:
.

Fourier transform of the function p.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:14 pm

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
.

Fourier transform of the function p.

Don't be a wise ass. Write out the equation. Thanks.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:58 pm


Gull writes “FT(...)”. Other people put a caret on top, or a tilde. The constant is sometimes different. If you do it right, then FT^2 = identity mapping. Quantum mechanics is all about Fourier transforms! Signal processing too. Please don’t call me a “wise-ass”. You need to look at the lecture notes of your college course on signal processing, or quantum mechanics, or whatever. If you are self-taught, that’s also fine. Life long learning!

Gull is at Cambridge (you know, in Old England). I was an undergraduate and did a masters there too (Gonville and Caius college). I was once offered a Cambridge professorship but I turned it down because the salary was too low. That was the only time I felt intense home-sickness for England. In Cambridge we do everything different from those stuck-up folks in Oxford.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:32 am

gill1109 wrote: ...

I don't think that can be correct. I assume for p(x) you mean . is 0 or 1 and the result has to be 0 or 1 but it won't be with that definition. There are lots of different definitions for the Fourier Transform. The one I use is from particle physics. It returns a Dirac Delta. But I think what Gull had in mind is more simple. Maybe something like this,



So we have,


and

.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:39 am

p is a function from the interval [0, 2pi] to the set of two points {-1, +1}. Obviously, it won't be continuous, especially when you bare in mind that it must integrate (average out) to zero. p(theta) is the outcome, +/-1, which Alice's computer gives when Alice gives it the angle theta between 0 and 2 pi. If you draw a picture of the function it will be a kind of irregular rectangular wave, jumping between -1 and +1. It's average is zero. In fact, on [pi, 2pi] it will look the same as it does on [0, pi], but upside down. Bob's function is the negative of Alice's.

Gull has in mind the formula which I wrote down. Try Googling "Fourier transform of a periodic function", or "generalized Fourier transforms". Look at my paper, it has pictures of the correlation functions which you can get with this sort of "p". And R code to draw more.

Proposal: we write and publish a paper with Gull's proof written out carefully and go on to discuss in it whether or not Gull's purely mathematical result has any physical relevance. The paper need not come to a conclusion on the last point. You and I can agree to differ. The point of the paper would be to allow readers to think about these things for themselves.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:14 am

gill1109 wrote:p is a function from the interval [0, 2pi] to the set of two points {-1, +1}. ...

That is not what Gull wrote. He wrote, "p = 0 or 1 for all " in his number (2).
.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:32 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote: ...

I don't think that can be correct. I assume for p(x) you mean . is 0 or 1 and the result has to be 0 or 1 but it won't be with that definition. There are lots of different definitions for the Fourier Transform. The one I use is from particle physics. It returns a Dirac Delta. But I think what Gull had in mind is more simple. Maybe something like this,



So we have,


and

.

So, Gull's number (3) is trivial. In fact, it is so trivial I'm not sure why one would even bother with it. But it is his number (4) that introduces the nonsense. That function should actually be,



Which it looks like he corrected it to that on page 1. And it varies from 0 to 1/2. Of course the FT when it is zero is zero. But the FT when it is 1/2 is 1/2 and when 1/4 it is 1/4, etc. So what the heck is he talking about? He is talking about some nonsense. This whole thing with the Fourier Transforms is just a big pile of garbage. :mrgreen:
.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:05 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:p is a function from the interval [0, 2pi] to the set of two points {-1, +1}. ...

That is not what Gull wrote. He wrote, "p = 0 or 1 for all " in his number (2).
.

Look at his pictures of the function. He meant p =0 or 1 for each theta. He’s an astrophysicist, not a mathematician.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:30 am

FrediFizzx wrote:So, Gull's number (3) is trivial. In fact, it is so trivial I'm not sure why one would even bother with it. But it is his number (4) that introduces the nonsense. That function should actually be,



Which it looks like he corrected it to that on page 1. And it varies from 0 to 1/2. Of course the FT when it is zero is zero. But the FT when it is 1/2 is 1/2 and when 1/4 it is 1/4, etc. So what the heck is he talking about? He is talking about some nonsense. This whole thing with the Fourier Transforms is just a big pile of garbage. :mrgreen:
.

The whole proof (when written out correctly) is very, very simple. It consists of a short chain of near trivialities. But then, a true mathematical theorem is a tautology.

The Fourier transform is an operation which transforms one function of one variable to another function of another variable in a one-to-one way.

The singlet correlations can be written . Anyone who knows some high school trigonometry should be able to fix Gull’s mistakes themselves.

At a MaxEnt conference, Steve quickly wrote some overhead sheets with a sketch of a proof that he hadn’t been thinking about for ten or more years. It was at a big conference, and Ed Jaynes had just given a talk, claiming that the usual proof of Bell’s theorem was wrong. Steve Gull came back with his own old proof which he’d used years ago as an exam question. Ed responded that it had taken 20 years for the world to understand Bell’s proof (he, Ed Jaynes, had just delivered the coup de grace). Now it would take 40 years for the world to understand Gull’s. Seems like his prophecy was correct. Bell’s 1964 proof certainly could do with improvement. Gull’s could be the way to go. The theorem stands firmer than ever before.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:23 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote: ...

I don't think that can be correct. I assume for p(x) you mean . is 0 or 1 and the result has to be 0 or 1 but it won't be with that definition. There are lots of different definitions for the Fourier Transform. The one I use is from particle physics. It returns a Dirac Delta. But I think what Gull had in mind is more simple. Maybe something like this,



So we have,


and

.

So, Gull's number (3) is trivial. In fact, it is so trivial I'm not sure why one would even bother with it. But it is his number (4) that introduces the nonsense. That function should actually be,



Which it looks like he corrected it to that on page 1. And it varies from 0 to 1/2. Of course the FT when it is zero is zero. But the FT when it is 1/2 is 1/2 and when 1/4 it is 1/4, etc. So what the heck is he talking about? He is talking about some nonsense. This whole thing with the Fourier Transforms is just a big pile of garbage. :mrgreen:
.

Well..., we need a correction here.



So, Gull's number (4) is still nonsense any way you look at it.
.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:01 am

Yes, Gull’s (4) is wrong. I agreed. I also told you how to correct it. Correct it, and then proceed to (5). What does Gull do next? Can you also do what he does, with a corrected (4)? [I can!]. Or don’t you want to write and publish a very nice paper with me?
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:34 pm

gill1109 wrote:Yes, Gull’s (4) is wrong. I agreed. I also told you how to correct it. Correct it, and then proceed to (5). What does Gull do next? Can you also do what he does, with a corrected (4)? [I can!]. Or don’t you want to write and publish a very nice paper with me?

Nonsense is nonsense. There is no fixing it. :mrgreen:
.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:21 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Yes, Gull’s (4) is wrong. I agreed. I also told you how to correct it. Correct it, and then proceed to (5). What does Gull do next? Can you also do what he does, with a corrected (4)? [I can!]. Or don’t you want to write and publish a very nice paper with me?

Nonsense is nonsense. There is no fixing it. :mrgreen:
.

It’s fixed. You are giving up on the home straight because you don’t like what you see coming next!

That’s your loss. I will write the paper myself, but I will thank you for the stimulating discussion.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:27 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Yes, Gull’s (4) is wrong. I agreed. I also told you how to correct it. Correct it, and then proceed to (5). What does Gull do next? Can you also do what he does, with a corrected (4)? [I can!]. Or don’t you want to write and publish a very nice paper with me?

Nonsense is nonsense. There is no fixing it. :mrgreen:
.

It’s fixed. You are giving up on the home straight because you don’t like what you see coming next!

That’s your loss. I will write the paper myself, but I will thank you for the stimulating discussion.

You're welcome. If you think you can fix pure nonsense by all means, write a paper about it. I'm pretty sure it will be more nonsense piled on top of the nonsense already there.

You and Heine didn't even have Gull's number (2) right. It is just one function for the correlations not two. IOW, what is the correlation given theta and the trial number. Well, that in itself is kind of nonsensical since Gull or you guys never specified what the actual function might be. I have no clue as to how that could be predicted. The nonsense part comes in because QM can't predict it either. Gull's so-called "proof" is just another typical Bell fanatic smokescreen. Do yourself a favor and try to come up with a real proof for your theory about simulating experiments. Forget Gull's nonsense.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby FrediFizzx » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:40 am

Ok, so back to running the GAVIewer program on two computers. I'm 100 percent convinced there will be no difference in the results whether it is run on one or two computers. So, it is indeed a perfect counter-example to Gull's nonsense.
.
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Re: GAViewer Simulation No Hidden Variable

Postby gill1109 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:57 am

FrediFizzx wrote:Ok, so back to running the GAVIewer program on two computers. I'm 100 percent convinced there will be no difference in the results whether it is run on one or two computers. So, it is indeed a perfect counter-example to Gull's nonsense.
.

The point is not whether or not your GAViewer program gives the same results on several computers. The point is whether or not you can write two new programs, each running a separate dialogue on a separate computer; each getting their own stream of angles, supplied externally. You don’t control the inputs. We, scientists and amateur scientists of the world, do.

Please try! Write the two programs, so that anyone can test them, themselves, run completely separately; one taking Alice’s angles, one taking Bob’s angles. Each program must run that loop-with-dialogue.
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