Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Yablon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:11 am

Dear Friends:

I have been silent lately because my father passed away suddenly in earlier September at the age of 90, just three weeks after our whole extended family, thankfully, celebrated his 90th birthday with him. Finding time to do physics is not easy these days, because now the American way of death adds insult to injury by saddling the family with having to sort through and settle an estate.

That said, I am nonetheless revving up for a new paper which will really clarify my earlier work, insofar as I have taught about and relied upon extremely precise up and down quark masses to characterize nuclear binding and fusion energies, but have never fully explained how this works given the renormalization-scale problems which are widely viewed to be encountered precedent to being able to define quark masses.

I have included the introductory section of this paper below, and would very much appreciate your feedback as I work through this new paper. I am leaving out the footnotes, but have uploaded a PDF at https://jayryablon.files.wordpress.com/ ... ns-spf.pdf which includes the footnotes.

Thanks,

Jay

1. Introduction

In two earlier peer-reviewed papers [ ], [ ] the author demonstrated within parts per 10^5 AMU and better precision how the binding and fusion energies of the 2H, 3H, 3He and 4He light nuclides as well as the binding energy of 56Fe could be explained as a function of only two parameters, namely, the current masses of the up and down quarks, found with extremely high precision in AMU to be mu = 0.002 387 339 327 u and md = 0.005 267 312 526 u, see [10.3] and [10.4] and section 4 of [2] as well as section 12 of [1]. Using the conversion 1 u = 931.494 061(21) MeV [ ] this equates with some loss of precision [ ] to mu = 2.223 792 40 MeV and md = 4.906 470 34 MeV, respectively. In an International Patent Application published at [ ], this analysis was extended to 6Li, 7Li, 7Be, 8Be, 10B, 9Be, 10Be, 11B, 11C, 12C and 14N with equally-high precision. And in [ ] this analysis was extended using the Fermi vev vF=246.219651 GeV and the Cabibbo, Kobayashi and Maskawa (CKM) mass and mixing matrix as two additional parameters, to explain the proton and neutron masses MN = 939.565379 MeV and MP = 938.272046 MeV [ ], completely within all known experimental errors.

Yet, there is one underlying point which has not been sufficiently explained in any of these prior papers: the Particle Data Group (PDG) lists these two current-quark masses to be to and and with large error bars of almost 20% for the down quark and almost 50% for the up quarks, “in a mass-independent subtraction scheme such as [modified minimal subtraction] at a scale .” [ ] (Note that and similar renormalization schemes are used to absorb the divergences from perturbative calculations beyond leading order.) In other words, the PDG values are extracted for a given renormalization scale and are actually a function of this scale and of the renormalization scheme. So although these mu = 2.223 792 40 MeV and md = 4.906 470 34 MeV found by the author are well-placed near the center of these PDG error bars, the claimed precision raises the question: can we really talk about and understand these quark masses with such high precision, in a fashion which is independent of renormalization scale and scheme? More plainly put: is there some sensible way to simply state that “the up and down quark masses are X and Y,” with X and Y being some mass-energy numbers which have an extremely small error bar due to nothing other than the accuracy of our measuring equipment? Is there a sensible, definite, unambiguous, very precise scheme we can use to define the current quark masses, consistent with empirical data, which scheme is renormalization scale-independent?

Specifically, the author’s prior findings that mu = 2.223 792 40 MeV and md = 4.906 470 34 MeV (these same masses were earlier shown even more precisely in AMU) with a precision over a million times as tight as the PDG error bars, even if mathematically correct in relation to the nuclear masses with which these quark masses are interrelated, presuppose an understanding of how these quark masses are to be physically defined and measured and understood. Without such an understanding, the author’s prior work is incomplete, and to date, the author has not directly and plainly articulated this understanding.

The intention of the present paper is to remedy this deficiency by making clear that the mass defects found in nuclear weights which are related in a known way to nuclear binding and fusion / fission energies, are in fact a sort of “nuclear DNA” or “nuclear genome” the proper decoding of which teaches about nuclear and nucleon structure and the masses of the quarks in a way that has not to date been fully appreciated. In contrast to the nuclear scattering schemes presently used to establish quark masses, which are all based on renormalization-dependent, energy scale-dependent experiments involving scattering of nuclides and nuclei, the scheme which has been implicitly used by the author which this paper will now make explicit, is a nuclear mass defect scheme in which quark masses are defined in relation to the objective, very precise, experiment-independent, scale-independent, long-known energy numbers that have been experimentally found and catalogued for the nuclear mass defects, weights, binding energies, and fusion / fission energies.

All scattering experiments essentially bombard a target and use forensic analysis of the known bombardment and the found debris to learn about the nature of the target prior to bombardment. In contrast, mass defects are no more and no less than an expression of nuclear weights requiring no bombardment of anything. In this context, the prevailing scheme for characterizing quark masses has wide error bars because it is based on “bombing” the nuclides and nuclei, while the scheme to be elaborated here has very high precision because it is a “weighing” scheme which uses only nuclide and nuclear weights and so inherits the precision with which these weights are known. Colloquially speaking, the scheme to be articulated here has very tight error bars because it is based on non-intrusive nuclear “weighing” rather than highly-intrusive nuclear “bombing,” and because nuclear weights themselves are very precisely known while scattering experiments introduce renormalization and scale issues which ruin precision and the ability to establish an unambiguous approach for specifying quark masses.
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Ben6993 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:29 am

Hi Jay

It is exciting that you have returned to this work.

You asked for comments on the introduction and I have only one comment which is about the differing precisions depending on the units used. Presumably the less precise figure is tainted by a less precisely known physical constant used within the unit, which has nothing really to do with your calculations? If two hypothetical scales were related purely arithmetically, the precision on each scale would be the same. I suppose physicists would read your point and fully understand, whereas I read it and think "well you shouldn't be able to gain meaningful precision just by changing the units".

Some other points, if I may. As you know, most of the theory is way over my head though I can and have enjoyed engaging previously with the patterns in the practical applications of some of the formulae. You write in your patent (and elsewhere, but I have recently been reading the patent) that you have used a fermion Ansatz. That is fine for up and down fermion masses being exchanged as binding energies, but at one place you mention that a free nucleon uses all its binding energy within itself. But gluons are what are supposed to bind quarks within a nucleon, and gluons are not fermions. Presumably you are not using that fermion Ansatz to cater for a free nucleon? I am asking because I have been wondering for some time if exotic non-SM fermions are fleetingly created within the nucleon.

BTW, I asked a question of you on spr hoping to get a free lesson. (Sorry!) I heard Susskind say, in an online video about the Standard Model, that if you gently jiggle a quark then it can appear to have the mass of the whole nucleon. But if you hit it hard it will have the mass around that "given in Wiki tables". I have no idea how to jiggle a quark, and I suppose that hitting them hard is what happens at CERN.

Best wishes
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Yablon » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:53 pm

Ben6993 wrote:Hi Jay

It is exciting that you have returned to this work.

You asked for comments on the introduction and I have only one comment which is about the differing precisions depending on the units used. Presumably the less precise figure is tainted by a less precisely known physical constant used within the unit, which has nothing really to do with your calculations? If two hypothetical scales were related purely arithmetically, the precision on each scale would be the same. I suppose physicists would read your point and fully understand, whereas I read it and think "well you shouldn't be able to gain meaningful precision just by changing the units".

Some other points, if I may. As you know, most of the theory is way over my head though I can and have enjoyed engaging previously with the patterns in the practical applications of some of the formulae. You write in your patent (and elsewhere, but I have recently been reading the patent) that you have used a fermion Ansatz. That is fine for up and down fermion masses being exchanged as binding energies, but at one place you mention that a free nucleon uses all its binding energy within itself. But gluons are what are supposed to bind quarks within a nucleon, and gluons are not fermions. Presumably you are not using that fermion Ansatz to cater for a free nucleon? I am asking because I have been wondering for some time if exotic non-SM fermions are fleetingly created within the nucleon.

BTW, I asked a question of you on spr hoping to get a free lesson. (Sorry!) I heard Susskind say, in an online video about the Standard Model, that if you gently jiggle a quark then it can appear to have the mass of the whole nucleon. But if you hit it hard it will have the mass around that "given in Wiki tables". I have no idea how to jiggle a quark, and I suppose that hitting them hard is what happens at CERN.

Best wishes


Hi Ben, all good questions. I have been working on this paper pretty steadily for a few weeks now, and should be ready to post the whole thing in the next few days. Then I will get back on here and answer these and other questions.

The Hadronic Journal looks to have recently switched over their system to requiring a subscription before you can downland a paper, and their web page for subscribing is under construction. So for now, I am just going to use the link to the paper on my blog at https://jayryablon.files.wordpress.com/ ... -20121.pdf.

Best regards,

Jay
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Yablon » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:41 pm

To all:

I have now prepared a complete first draft of this paper which I will be proofreading and revising it in the next few days. But I thought I would share a preview copy with my SPF and SPR friends, so I have uploaded that to the following link: http://jayryablon.files.wordpress.com/2 ... ns-1-8.pdf

In this paper I have pulled together in one place, all of my central theoretical advances of the past two years. I have sought to a) establish that the way in which I am defining current quark masses constitutes a valid measurement scheme, b) lay out the very extensive empirical support that I have already established via observed nuclear binding and fusion energies as well as the proton and neutron masses themselves, c) make crystal clear how I get from my theory that protons and neutrons and other baryons are the chromo-magnetic monopoles of Yang-Mills gauge theory to my empirical results, i.e., I have laid out the theoretical-to-empirical interface more carefully than I have ever done before and in the process laid out for the first time how the current quark masses mix within the first generation, and d) argue clearly how the underlying theory is very conservative, being no more and no less than a very careful mathematical combination of Maxwell's theory with both the electric and magnetic equations merged into one, Yang-Mills theory, Dirac theory, Fermi-Dirac-Pauli Exclusion Principal, and to get from classical chromodynamics to QCD, Feynman path integration.

There is a saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. This new paper is where I have provided deep and extraordinary proof as to the theoretical support, the empirical support, and the bridge between the two, and have done so about as concisely as possible for such deeply fundamental work.

Once this paper is complete, I will submit this to Phys Rev D, where my earlier paper at http://vixra.org/pdf/1403.0272v3.pdf remains under review, and then I plan to start getting more assertive about them moving along their reviews lest they screw up the dibs I am giving them on the most important theoretical physics advance in decades.

Jay
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Yablon » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:32 am

Dear Friends,

I just completed reviewing and revising this paper, and it is now posted to http://vixra.org/pdf/1411.0023v1.pdf.

Here is the abstract: In several previous publications the author has presented the theory that protons and neutrons and other baryons are the chromo-magnetic monopoles of Yang-Mills gauge theory and used that to deduce the up and down current quark masses from the tightly-known Q=0 empirical electron, proton and neutron (EPN) masses with commensurately high precision. This is then used as a springboard to closely fit a wide range of empirical nuclear binding and fusion energy data, and to obtain the proton and neutron masses themselves within all experimental errors. This paper systematically pulls all of this together and a) establishes that this way of defining current quark masses constitutes a valid measurement scheme, b) lays out the empirical support for this theory already established via observed nuclear binding and fusion energies as well as the proton and neutron masses themselves, c) solidifies the interface used to connect the theory to these empirical results and for the first time uncovers a mixing between the up and down current quark masses, and d) presents clearly how and why the underlying theory is very conservative, being no more and no less than a deductive mathematical synthesis of Maxwell's classical theory with both the electric and magnetic field equations merged into one, Yang-Mills gauge theory, Dirac fermion theory, the Fermi-Dirac-Pauli Exclusion Principle, and to get from classical chromodynamics to QCD, Feynman path integration.

I had stated the other day that I would submit this to Phys Rev. D. At the last moment I decided instead to submit this, and have done so, to Phys Rev. C because while there is certainly subject matter suitable for both journals, the center of gravity of this paper is in the nuclear theory versus particles and fields area, and overall it is really a hadronic physics paper seeking to bridge the gap between nuclear and elementary particle physics.

Ben, I know you in particular will enjoy this paper, and I think it should answer your questions. But anything you want to go over please post and I'll be happy to reply.

I will keep you all apprised of progress. For the several people who provided good input on the first draft, thank you so much!

Jay
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Ben6993 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:32 pm

Hi Jay

Sorry to get back with mundane typo alerts. I was waiting for you to correct the first typo as it has been there in several drafts but since it is in the title maybe it is best to tell you before the paper goes anywhere else.

Title: 'and' should be 'an'. And also,
Page 34, para 9) 'stated' should be 'started'.

Just following up on a question of mine that you answered a year or so ago. Nucleii are assumed to have a shell structure which mimics that of the electron shell structure. When you find toolkit patterns of usage that confirm the apparent shell structure then that is good. But the toolkit usage patterns may throw up additions to the understanding of the shell patterns? The shell and sub-shell patterns are not completely known already? Else it would make it less difficult to use the toolkit on all remaining nucleides.

Some of the (e.g.) sqrt(MuMd) seem to be acting between nucleons like electrons do in covalent bonding between atoms? If two atoms share some electrons, will that affect their nuclear binding energies compared to when the atoms are free?


I am determined to try to understand the derivation of your formulae more fully one day.

Regards.
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Yablon » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:19 pm

Ben wrote:Hi Jay

Sorry to get back with mundane typo alerts. I was waiting for you to correct the first typo as it has been there in several drafts but since it is in the title maybe it is best to tell you before the paper goes anywhere else.

Title: 'and' should be 'an'. And also,
Page 34, para 9) 'stated' should be 'started'.

Thanks Ben. I finally saw that title faux pas myself today. I proofread everything but the damned title! Argh! ;)
Ben wrote:Just following up on a question of mine that you answered a year or so ago. Nucleii are assumed to have a shell structure which mimics that of the electron shell structure. When you find toolkit patterns of usage that confirm the apparent shell structure then that is good. But the toolkit usage patterns may throw up additions to the understanding of the shell patterns? The shell and sub-shell patterns are not completely known already? Else it would make it less difficult to use the toolkit on all remaining nucleides.

The nuclear shell patterns mimic the electron shell patterns because all of these guys are fermions and so they have to follow exclusion. Further, because they all have two spin states they will pair up and after you get two of them together you need to change some other quantum number to add something else. So for example, take an 56-Fe, one of my favorites, no ionization, and so this has 26 protons and 26 electrons and 30 neutrons. I like to think of the nucleus as having two shell structure, one for all the protons and one for all the neutron. So the 26 protons have a shell structure which is just like the electron shell structure in terms of the quantum numbers that one can use. But there are 30 neutrons. Zinc is the element with 30 electrons, so the neutrons will have a shell structure which analogizes to that of the electrons in zinc. Thus, using electron shells as a departure point, when I think about 56-Fe, I think about an Fe-like proton shell structure and a Zn-like neutron shell structure.
Ben wrote:Some of the (e.g.) sqrt(MuMd) seem to be acting between nucleons like electrons do in covalent bonding between atoms?

Up to a point. There is an analogy to be drawn between electron binding and nuclear binding in terms of how energies are used to produce both of them. But keep in mind when you form a molecule out of two atoms, the nuclear structures remain intact, because it is the nucleus that gives an atom its identity. That is, when you fuse 2 H and one O to get a water molecule, the H and the O nuclei remain the same. But if you fused two hydrogen nuclei (protons for 1H) with a 16-O nucleus, you'd get 18-O which is a stable oxygen isoptope, or 18-X where X is some other (unstable) nucleus with 18 nucleons.
Ben wrote:If two atoms share some electrons, will that affect their nuclear binding energies compared to when the atoms are free?

There is a very definite analogy between atomic and nuclear binding, but atomic binding does not affect nuclear binding. There is energy emitted in each case. The former is chemical (or ionization depending on exact situation) energy and the latter is nuclear energy.
Ben wrote:I am determined to try to understand the derivation of your formulae more fully one day.

I hope you are able to do so; I am happy to help as much as I can.

Jay
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Ben6993 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:21 am

Hi Jay

I remember a previous note of yours saying one way to beat down the door, as it were, is to pile up so much evidence that your work cannot be ignored. Is it possible to adapt your formulae to cater for non-monopoles eg mesons?

For example could the π+ (= up & antidown) with mass ~ 139.6 MeV/c^2 be though of as having a potential sqrt(Mu*Md) available for binding?

And why does the π0 need less energy, than the π+, for confinement at 135.0 MeV/c^2?

Also, in its 'excited spin state' form the pion becomes the rho which needs more confinement energy at 775.4 MeV/c^2 but there is hardly any difference between the masses of the ρ+ and ρ0.

All the best.
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Yablon » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:58 am

Ben6993 wrote:Hi Jay

I remember a previous note of yours saying one way to beat down the door, as it were, is to pile up so much evidence that your work cannot be ignored. Is it possible to adapt your formulae to cater for non-monopoles eg mesons?

For example could the π+ (= up & antidown) with mass ~ 139.6 MeV/c^2 be though of as having a potential sqrt(Mu*Md) available for binding?

And why does the π0 need less energy, than the π+, for confinement at 135.0 MeV/c^2?

Also, in its 'excited spin state' form the pion becomes the rho which needs more confinement energy at 775.4 MeV/c^2 but there is hardly any difference between the masses of the ρ+ and ρ0.

All the best.

Hi Ben and everyone:

Just to let you know I posted an update revision at http://vixra.org/pdf/1411.0023v2.pdf. This contains editorial changes to facilitate readability and understandability. No new substantive results.

A good link for mesons is http://pdg.lbl.gov/2014/reviews/rpp2014 ... -model.pdf, see pages 2 to 5. The rho is a vector meson and the pi are pseudo scalars, so more energy will be needed to sustain the spin 1 of a vector over the spin 0 of a scalar. As to why these energies are what they are, you have gotten me back to pondering this question which I spent quite of bit of time with two years ago. Certainly, as soon as one of these masses is explained, an important piece of the mass gap problem will have been solved, because having a massive meson means a short range interaction. This happens in my theory in principle because of the non-linear terms that enter via the recursive path integral, which shows that there is an effective non-zero mass in the propagators, but I have not to date nailed down the observed mesons mass numbers. Stay tuned, I hope... ;)

Jay
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Yablon » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:02 pm

Ben6993 wrote:Hi Jay

I remember a previous note of yours saying one way to beat down the door, as it were, is to pile up so much evidence that your work cannot be ignored. Is it possible to adapt your formulae to cater for non-monopoles eg mesons?

For example could the π+ (= up & antidown) with mass ~ 139.6 MeV/c^2 be though of as having a potential sqrt(Mu*Md) available for binding?

And why does the π0 need less energy, than the π+, for confinement at 135.0 MeV/c^2?

Also, in its 'excited spin state' form the pion becomes the rho which needs more confinement energy at 775.4 MeV/c^2 but there is hardly any difference between the masses of the ρ+ and ρ0.

All the best.

Hi Ben,

You did get me back into the hunt for new masses. No pay-dirt yet, but I did come across a couple of things that I will share in the next couple of days. One of them is that the π+/- and π0 masses differ by an amount that is very close to 9 times the electron mass, and of course I have already related the electron mass to the up and down quark mass difference. So I can get this parts in 10^5 AMU just like many of my other results, and express this in similar terms. But I am not ready to declare a new find, until I figure out some more things and start to find some rudimentary patterns for the mesons generally. But I do think that characterizing the differences between the meson masses in some triplets like the π triplet may be a good starting point. To go straight to the meson masses themselves would require an analysis similar to what I did for the proton and neutron masses, and I would very much expect and indeed be willing to wager that the Fermi vev will be situated somewhere in the expressions for those masses.

Jay
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Re: Unambiguously defining quark masses with high precision?

Postby Ben6993 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:09 pm

Hi Jay

Yes, I see it even without a calculator! (139.6- 135.0)/9 = approximately the electron mass, in MeV/c^2. [Now why did I not take your extra step to look at the electron mass, as I know you have done that previously? I am mentally kicking myself for missing a eureka moment, even if it turns out to be not quite correct.] But where do the nine up/down quark pairs come from in a pion? Is not the π+ only one up plus one antidown? I only went as far as playing with your Koide formulae, very probably adapting it incorrectly, and finding the energy available for binding maybe 2sqrt(Mu*Md) for both the π+ and π- so they should have the same mass as each other. The π0 has two forms entangled as uu' and d'd and they gave me, maybe, either 2Mu or 2Md depending on which state one looked at [again, apologies for misusing formulae]. So, does a π0 have a single mass which is an entanglement of two masses? Then I contented myself that the 4.6 gap in masses was about the size of a quark and could well represent binding energy differences.

Then I looked at the rho vector mesons where there was hardly any mass gap, but with a much larger confinment energy than for the scalar pion. Then I stopped looking!

I did, later, look for a while at the paper, with a table of meson properties, that you provided a link to, and thought there may be scope for finding some more patterns. And yes, it will be interesting to find more triples which differ in mass by a multiple of an electron mass. [Is it only me that does not feel too sure about the content of these mesons? Presumably, mesons' quark contents are not as solidly known as the nucleides' quark contents?]

All the best.

Ben


P.S. Sorry for any incoherence but I have flu, despite having had an anti-flu jab a month ago.
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