minkwe wrote:You did not define what you mean by it (TLR).
minkwe wrote:Realism means particles have objective properties at all times, independent of measurement or measurability. Locality means all effects and interactions between particles propagate at slower than or equal to the speed of light.
The two sentences above encapsulate the meaning of Local realism. Why do you need a different ('your') definition that needs it's own acronym (TLR). What is wrong with the one above?
minkwe wrote:So what is the definition? You still did not provide it.
minkwe wrote:So what is the definition? You still did not provide it. At least not in a clear way that can be discussed.
TLR (true-local-realism) is the union of Bohr's insight, Einstein locality and Bell beables.
Mikko wrote:Typically a definition contains following elements:
- the new term to be defined
- a more general concept that the new term denotes a special case
- a feature that distinguishes those instances of the general concept that are covered by the new term from those that are not.
So far it is not even clear whether TLR is meant to be a name of a particular theory or a family of theories or a feature that each theory either has or has not; and that is the first thing a definition would tell.
Gordon Watson wrote:TLR (true-local-realism) is an experimentally-validated quantum-compatible theory based on the combination of true-locality and true-realism. So let’s first distinguish true locality and true realism from naive locality and naive realism.
.Under naive locality, some causal influences may propagate superluminally
Under Einstein locality (our true locality), a theoretically and experimentally validated restriction is imposed: i.e., no causal influence propagates superluminally; thus local events cannot be affected by actions in space-like separated regions.
Under naive realism, physical reality is assumed to exist and have definite properties, whether or not they are observed by someone: i.e., regularities in observed phenomena are caused by some physical reality whose existence is independent of human observers.
Under true realism, via Bohr’s insight, a theoretically and experimentally validated extension is EXPLICITLY allowed: some physical realities (with definite properties, by definition) may be transformed to new physical realities (with definite properties, by definition) under an interaction.
minkwe wrote:Local Realism is the idea that particles have objective properties at all times, independent of observation/observability, and all effects and interactions between particles propagate at slower than or equal to the speed of light.
I do not see anything in your descriptions and explanations above that add anything to the above. I wish you would just state in a concise statement of a few sentences what TLR means. Why is my definition of Local realism above not sufficient to describe what you are talking about?
Gordon Watson wrote:True realism is defined by the union of naive realism and Bohr's insight.
Under naive realism (typically associated with classical physics), ....
minkwe wrote:Naive realism is the idea that the act of observation simply passively reveals what existed prior to observation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism
So what part of my definition of local realism do you think is naive? I'm trying to understand the novelty in your TLR and I'm not seeing it. I don't think it adds anything to the definition of Local Realism I already provided. It just muddies the waters.
It seems all you are saying is that "some interactions result in changes in properties" or "some interactions produce new properties which did not previously exist", which is already given not anything new that needs to be explicitly permitted.
minkwe wrote:Naive realism is the idea that the act of observation simply passively reveals what existed prior to observation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism
So what part of my definition of local realism do you think is naive? I'm trying to understand the novelty in your TLR and I'm not seeing it. I don't think it adds anything to the definition of Local Realism I already provided. It just muddies the waters.
minkwe wrote:Gordon Watson wrote:True realism is defined by the union of naive realism and Bohr's insight.
Under naive realism (typically associated with classical physics), ....
BTW, I disagree with your characterisation of "Bohr's insight". See http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/cmystery.pdf
Gordon Watson wrote:Minkwe's Local Realism For Particles (MLRFP) is the idea that particles have objective properties at all times, independent of observation/observability, and all effects and interactions between particles propagate at slower than or equal to the speed of light.
Gordon Watson wrote:Please:
A. What is the significance/effect of the qualifying phrase “independent of observation/observability”?
Gordon Watson wrote:B. Example: Is Minkwe's Realism For Particles (MRFP) the idea that particles have objective properties at all times?
Gordon Watson wrote:C. Example: Is Minkwe's Realism For Particles (MRFP) the idea that particles have objective properties at all times, independent of observation/observability.; with the implication that particles have objective properties at other times dependent on observation/observability?
Gordon Watson wrote:D: What happens if we replace “observation” by interaction?
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