EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:12 pm

local wrote:Prof. Gill was equivocating about it on another thread:
"do we really need a symposium on this ancient stuff? I doubt that yet another symposium is going to definitively resolve the EPR paradox and the problem of the interpretation of quantum mechanics"
viewtopic.php?p=9627#p9627

Oh, I was just being provocative! Something someone said, annoyed me. Here I am, doing all this work, and it seemed not to be appreciated in certain quarters.

Please, you tell me: do *you* think we need another? Give me good reasons, and that will help me to organise one!

Actually, the present idea (in the minds of a small group of people) is for a workshop of one week, with embedded in that a one-day public symposium, and embedded in that an open debate between myself and Joy Christian. I have the idea to hold the workshop at the Lorentz Center, Leiden. They have a fantastic infrastructure for this kind of thing, and a dedication to multidisciplinarity. The workshop will address not just the problems of the interpretation of quantum mechanics, but also the sociological and media and political aspects of research in areas where there is major public interest. Quantum entanglement attracts the attention of amateurs. Crowd funding! But of intellect, not of money.

On the other hand: quantum computing attracts science journalists, there is hype, there is money, but the journalists do not understand what they are writing about. Hype is dangerous, because if expectations are not fulfilled, it will have negative effects on the public's appreciation of science. People like Sabine Hossenfelder are already preaching that physics is in crisis. I think there is a lot in what she says. The experts in quantum information and quantum computing haven't found out how to explain to the public what they are doing. Of course, there is a big problem (in my opinion): anyone who claims to understand quantum mechanics, clearly doesn't. Sorry, JJC. Just my opinion. But not only my opinion.

Many people claim to solve the problems of the interpretation of quantum mechanics by coming up with different notions of "locality" and "realism" from the mainstream academics in the field of ... the foundations of physics. Metaphysics. Philosophy. What does it mean to "understand" a physical phenomenon? Is a mathematical model which describes it accurately enough? Some people think that that is all that we can hope for. I am not so sure. I think that QM can't be *understood* by our brains because of what evolution has decided that "understand" means. But this is a minority viewpoint, I know.

Amateurs actually have repeatedly made enormously important contributions to the field. First they are excluded and vilified, but finally, some of their ideas turn out actually to be really important. The ideas then get assimilated by the mainstream. Of course, the people who had those ideas, get forgotten, anyway. My favourite example of this is Caroline Thompson.

There is a deadline for submissions to Lorentz Center, Leiden, mid September. So I have quite a few weeks yet to write a proposal. However, I need some co-organisers. I have had some positive responses from suitable persons, but also some negative responses. But I have a lot of avenues still to explore. Time is pressing. In Dutch we say "a cat in a narrow place makes strange jumps". Something like: necessity is the mother of invention. I can just say: "watch this space".

If the Lorentz Center rejects a proposal by myself plus small group of co-organisers, then there are many other options worth following up.

If the Lorentz Center accepts the proposal then still it could easily take a year before the workshop actually happens. Rome was not built in a day. Please, everyone, be realistic and patient. And helpful and constructive!

BTW, of course, no way will we definitively and finally resolve all the problems of the interpretation of QM. Despite JJC's idea that he has laid the groundwork for this. Even if he actually has, he won't gain universal acceptance from what goes on in a week in Leiden. But I hope we can clear the air and make some progress... and generate some new ideas and some new collaborations. We'll see.
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby Heinera » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:53 pm

[Sorry for snipping a lot]

gill1109 wrote:. People like Sabine Hossenfelder are already preaching that physics is in crisis. I think there is a
lot in what she says.

There is no crisis in physics in my opinion. If anything, it's too good, so there has hardly been any progress on the theoretical level since the seventies. Even the LHC couldn't find any significant new empirical stuff that can't be explained by the standard model. Which means that the Nobel Committee had to award prizes to things like the invention of the CCD (the chip that sits in your digital camera) and other similar stuff that we would call engineering, and not new physics. (But Willard Boyle was a really cool guy when I met him in Stockholm in 2009, and he was rather surprised that the CCD would make him a laureate.)

The big question is the incompatibility between QM and gravity (GR). But any experiments that could cast new light on that question would take energies that are completely out of our reach (where both quantum and gravitational effects could be observed simultaneously), so I have no hope that this will be resolved in my lifetime (or for many generations after that).

gill1109 wrote:Amateurs actually have repeatedly made enormously important contributions to the field.

Uh...not recently. ;) You would have to go at least 130 years back to find an amateur who contributed to physics in any significant way (but what is the definition of an amateur anyway...)
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby Yablon » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:40 pm

gill1109 wrote:People like Sabine Hossenfelder are already preaching that physics is in crisis. I think there is a lot in what she says.

I also agree with her, which I will post more about shortly. Richard, if you can sign her up that would be superb! Jay
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby Yablon » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:12 pm

Heinera wrote:[Sorry for snipping a lot]

gill1109 wrote:. People like Sabine Hossenfelder are already preaching that physics is in crisis. I think there is a
lot in what she says.

There is no crisis in physics in my opinion. If anything, it's too good, so there has hardly been any progress on the theoretical level since the seventies. Even the LHC couldn't find any significant new empirical stuff that can't be explained by the standard model. Which means that the Nobel Committee had to award prizes to things like the invention of the CCD (the chip that sits in your digital camera) and other similar stuff that we would call engineering, and not new physics. (But Willard Boyle was a really cool guy when I met him in Stockholm in 2009, and he was rather surprised that the CCD would make him a laureate.)

The big question is the incompatibility between QM and gravity (GR). But any experiments that could cast new light on that question would take energies that are completely out of our reach (where both quantum and gravitational effects could be observed simultaneously), so I have no hope that this will be resolved in my lifetime (or for many generations after that).

gill1109 wrote:Amateurs actually have repeatedly made enormously important contributions to the field.

Uh...not recently. ;) You would have to go at least 130 years back to find an amateur who contributed to physics in any significant way (but what is the definition of an amateur anyway...)


With perhaps the exception of the statement about QM and GR, I deeply and profoundly disagree with everything Heinera has said above. So much so that I thought it vital to start a new thread at:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=399: The Crisis in Physics
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby Yablon » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:40 pm

gill1109 wrote:Please, you tell me: do *you* think we need another?

Absolutely!
gill1109 wrote:Give me good reasons, and that will help me to organise one!

Some are in viewtopic.php?f=6&t=399&p=9786#p9786. The ones specifically dealing with you and Joy and Bell and EPR and the like, you are familiar with through our private communications to get this ball rolling. And I hope to have some more to share publicly in the near future.
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby Yablon » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:15 pm

I am pleased to let everybody know that Sabine Hossenfelder has now agreed to join the ranks of the workshop / symposium organizers. Onward and upward! Jay
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:30 pm

Yablon wrote:I am pleased to let everybody know that Sabine Hossenfelder has now agreed to join the ranks of the workshop / symposium organizers. Onward and upward! Jay

More progress to report.

We are planning a *workshop* (typically five weekdays long, 40-50 invited participants) featuring a one-day public *symposium* (anyone can join in, but probably be advised to register in advance, in view of number of seats in the auditorium) perhaps on the fourth day, at which Joy will be one of the speakers and I will discuss his talk and Jay Yablon will moderate the forum discussion. Maybe a short panel discussion plus discussion also open to the floor. There would be a few more controversial speakers and "opposed" discussants. The outcome of the *symposium* will be that it happened. I hope we get it all videoed, maybe even live video stream. The *workshop* should have an outcome, namely we will spend the week answering some well focussed burning questions about quantum foundations and Bell inequalities, and at the end of the week maybe we (workshop participants) can agree on some kind of "press release", much like "The G7 Summit Final Statement" at the end of a G7 meeting. Of course, something like that has to be kind of pre-arranged and a lot of diplomacy will be needed, since to be honest, I don't think we are going to come up with the definitive final answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. Moreover, it is always possible that the discussions get so acrimonious that there is no Final Statement endorsed by the whole workshop.

The next deadline for submission of a workshop proposal to the Lorentz Center is September 30. Much too close, I'm afraid, seen our modest progress so far. But if we made that deadline, the workshop would be somewhere in the second half of 2020 https://www.lorentzcenter.nl/timeslots.php. We are running out of time, I suspect we need a bit more time so can kind of relax and aim for the next deadline after that, see https://www.lorentzcenter.nl/infoorg.php. Putting the workshop into the first half of 2021. It's closer than it seems!!! It's now end of 2019...

At least, I hope very soon to be able to announce the definite list of organisers. We are more or less complete, looks like we'll be a big and diverse team of six, reflecting the broadness and multi-disciplinarity of our subject.

Yours
Richard

PS Further clarification. The Lorentz Center https://www.lorentzcenter.nl/ is located on the science campus of Leiden University (where I am an emeritus professor) but is not part of the university. It is funded at the national level.

https://www.lorentzcenter.nl/aim.php

Mission Statement
The Lorentz Center is a national center [If I had my way, I would have called it Lorentz Centre - RDG] for international workshops in all scientific disciplines. Our guiding philosophy is that innovative research thrives on interaction between creative researchers. Lorentz Center workshops focus on new collaborations and on interactions in highly diverse groups of researchers – international and with different scientific viewpoints as well as seniority, gender, and culture.

The Lorentz Center concept
At the Lorentz Center, groups of researchers are brought together to assess the status of a field and share results, problems, methods, and views on future directions of research. ...
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:14 am

Our pre-proposal is now officially registered at the Lorentz Center and I'm in communication with the support staff of the center. We are aiming to submit the definitive proposal by their January 31, 2020, deadline. So the enveloping workshop and embedded symposium will be in 2021, if the (before then) fully worked out proposal is accepted. This proposal must include proposed dates and confirmed interest of key participants. We have a lot of work to do.

I can tell you that the workshop organisers are officially myself (Leiden - chairman), Sabine Hossenfelder (Frankfurt), Ivette Fuentes (Nottingham), Jan-Åke Larsson (Linkjoping), and Julia Cramer (Leiden). Most people here will know most of those names. Julia maybe needs a little introduction: she is a postdoc working on science communication; her PhD was written at Delft on NV defects in diamond - nitrogen-vacancy qubits - which as most of you know, were used in the 2015 Delft "loophole-free" Bell experiment. Jay Yablon will be a main symposium organiser and chairperson/mediator in the public scientific debates which we will hold on that day. The Lorentz Center rules (max number of organisers) did not allow us to include Jay as one of the official workshop organisers but rest assured that we will keep him fully "in the loop", his active participation is essential to the whole thing, especially the symposium. Note that the Lorentz Center is funded nationally. It just happens to be located on the science campus of Leiden University, which of course is a favourable location for many reaons. In particular, *very close* to Schiphol, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague ... the birthplace of Rembrandt - windmills, tulips, art, science, nature, the beach, lakes, canals, ...
Last edited by gill1109 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby Joy Christian » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:28 am

gill1109 wrote:Our pre-proposal is now officially registered at the Lorentz Center and I'm in communication with the support staff of the center. We are aiming to submit the definitive proposal by the January 31, 2020, deadline. So the enveloping workshop and embedded symposium will be in 2021, if the fully worked out proposal is accepted.

I can tell you that the workshop organisers are officially myself (Leiden - chairman), Sabine Hossenfelder (Frankfurt), Ivette Fuentes (Nottingham), Jan-Åke Larsson (Linkjoping), and Julia Cramer (Leiden). Most people here will know most of those names. Julia maybe needs a little introduction: she is a postdoc working on science communication; her PhD was written at Delft on NV defects in diamond - nitrogen-vacancy qubits - which as most of you know, were used in the 2015 Delft "loophole-free" Bell experiment. Jay Yablon will be a main symposium organiser and chairperson/mediator in the public scientific debates which we will hold on that day. The Lorentz Center rules (max number of organisers) did not allow us to include Jay as one of the official workshop organisers but rest assured that we will keep him fully "in the loop", his active participation is essential to the whole thing, especially the symposium. Note that the Lorentz Center is funded nationally. It just happens to be located on the science campus of Leiden University, which of course is a favourable location for many reasons. In particular, *very close* to Schiphol, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague ... the birthplace of Rembrandt - windmills, tulips, art, science, nature, the beach, lakes, canals, ...

Thank you for the update. I am fully geared up for talking at the symposium. I will do my best to convince everyone that Bell and his followers have misled the world for over half a century.

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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:27 am

Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Our pre-proposal is now officially registered at the Lorentz Center and I'm in communication with the support staff of the center. We are aiming to submit the definitive proposal by the January 31, 2020, deadline. So the enveloping workshop and embedded symposium will be in 2021, if the fully worked out proposal is accepted.

I can tell you that the workshop organisers are officially myself (Leiden - chairman), Sabine Hossenfelder (Frankfurt), Ivette Fuentes (Nottingham), Jan-Åke Larsson (Linkjoping), and Julia Cramer (Leiden). Most people here will know most of those names. Julia maybe needs a little introduction: she is a postdoc working on science communication; her PhD was written at Delft on NV defects in diamond - nitrogen-vacancy qubits - which as most of you know, were used in the 2015 Delft "loophole-free" Bell experiment. Jay Yablon will be a main symposium organiser and chairperson/mediator in the public scientific debates which we will hold on that day. The Lorentz Center rules (max number of organisers) did not allow us to include Jay as one of the official workshop organisers but rest assured that we will keep him fully "in the loop", his active participation is essential to the whole thing, especially the symposium. Note that the Lorentz Center is funded nationally. It just happens to be located on the science campus of Leiden University, which of course is a favourable location for many reasons. In particular, *very close* to Schiphol, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague ... the birthplace of Rembrandt - windmills, tulips, art, science, nature, the beach, lakes, canals, ...

Thank you for the update. I am fully geared up for talking at the symposium. I will do my best to convince everyone that Bell and his followers have misled the world for over half a century.

We are all counting on you to do just that, dear Joy!
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby Joy Christian » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:35 pm

***
The planned symposium in Leiden will have to go ahead without me.

I had accepted Gill's invitation to give a talk in the symposium conditionally. The condition I had put forward in the so-called "truce agreement" mediated by Jay R. Yablon was that Gill will not take any action aimed at having my published papers retracted, as he has done at least three times in the past. But the new thread started by him on PubPeer about my latest published paper violates that condition. Consequently, I am no longer bound by the "truce agreement" and reserve my right to not attend the planned symposium.

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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:15 pm

According to the truce agreement, any work by me on Christian's model is to be first announced on this forum. And this present posting is such an announcement - the first public announcement of a "new" pre-publication. I'm sure that many members of the forum will be able to tear the work apart. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: (As they already did on the viXra site).

But don't hold your breath. It's nothing very exciting.

In preparation for possible debate with Joy Christian or any of his supporters at our possible workshop and symposium, I am working on a revision and extension of my "tutorial" viXra paper http://vixra.org/abs/1504.0102 '"Does Geometric Algebra Provide a Loophole to Bell's Theorem?". The first small step towards revision can be found at https://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~gill/GA.pdf. So far, only the abstract has been extended and some minor corrections made elsewhere in the paper. I am not further publicising the existence of this document.

I was stimulated by Jay Yablon's first drafts of a manuscript in which he attempts a translation of Joy's model from GA to familiar Pauli algebra. Jay's work, and GA in general, was in recent weeks privately discussed at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bell_quantum_foundations. There is a lot of interest but also a lot of unfamiliarity with GA. Yet perhaps the most basic Clifford algebra: that of real three-dimensional space, and thereby the most basic Geometric Algebra too, is nothing else than the real 2^3 = 8 dimensional algebra of real linear combinations of 2x2 complex matrices, whose even sub-algebra, of dimension 4, is "just" the algebra of the quaternions.

After listening to the response here, I will proceed with the revision, and announce here when I think it is close to complete. After another breathing space giving time to listen to reactions here, I will place the revision on viXra and also submit to a suitable journal, perhaps IEEE Access.

Incidentally, there is an excellent tutorial on GA by Derek Abbott and his usual collaborators Chappell, Iqbal, & Hartnett on IEEE Access, https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7431944 and https://arxiv.org/abs/1509.00501. The same author has talked on this and on Christian's model at a big GA conference in Brazil last year, https://www.ime.unicamp.br/~agacse2018/guests. The slides of Abbott's talk are here:
https://mat-web.upc.edu/people/sebastia.xambo/A18/Abbott-0727.pdf

I had invested a lot of energy in studying the work of Christian and his supporters and this has resulted in a back-log of arXiv preprints and the like, which I now plan to start submitting for peer review in appropriate journals. I'll first announce any such developments here, as the truce stipulates.
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby Joy Christian » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:35 pm

***
Just to make something clear: There is no new "truce agreement" of any kind between me and Richard D. Gill, and the old "truce agreement" is dead. I am not bounded by anything at all, apart from the rules of posting on this forum. Richard Gill was banned from this forum for two weeks and is allowed back in today. The conditions he notes in his post above are conditions for his ban to be lifted, not for anything else. In particular, they have nothing to do with the planned symposium. It is entirely up to me to decide whether to attend the symposium or not.

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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:56 pm

Joy Christian wrote:Just to make something clear: There is no new "truce agreement" of any kind between me and Richard D. Gill, and the old "truce agreement" is dead. I am not bounded by anything at all, apart from the rules of posting on this forum. Richard Gill was banned from this forum for two weeks and is allowed back in today. The conditions he notes in his post above are conditions for his ban to be lifted, not for anything else. In particular, they have nothing to do with the planned symposium. It is entirely up to me to decide whether to attend the symposium or not.

Joy, you never ever was bound to come to any symposium! It was always entirely up to you to decide whether to attend the symposium or not, if it should materialise.

I call it "truce agreement" because Fred and Jay call it that. I am bound to the agreements I made with them. And of course, on Fred's forum, Fred's rules prevail.

I hope that there will be supporters of your work at the workshop and at the symposium.
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:42 pm

gill1109 wrote:In preparation for possible debate with Joy Christian or any of his supporters at our possible workshop and symposium, I am working on a revision and extension of my "tutorial" viXra paper http://vixra.org/abs/1504.0102 '"Does Geometric Algebra Provide a Loophole to Bell's Theorem?". The first small step towards revision can be found at https://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~gill/GA.pdf. So far, only the abstract has been extended and some minor corrections made elsewhere in the paper. I am not further publicising the existence of this document.

Vixra has now accepted this first revision.

Next steps:
submission to arXiv;
work on extension to cover later publications of Joy Christian;
revision and journal submission of https://arxiv.org/abs/1507.00106 "Event based simulation of an EPR-B experiment by local hidden variables: epr-simple and epr-clocked";
revision and journal submission of https://arxiv.org/abs/1505.04431 "Pearle's Hidden-Variable Model Revisited"

These steps are made possible by the publication in prominent journals, and hence wider public circulation, of Joy Christian's latest works.
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:26 am

gill1109 wrote:
gill1109 wrote:In preparation for possible debate with Joy Christian or any of his supporters at our possible workshop and symposium, I am working on a revision and extension of my "tutorial" viXra paper http://vixra.org/abs/1504.0102 '"Does Geometric Algebra Provide a Loophole to Bell's Theorem?". The first small step towards revision can be found at https://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~gill/GA.pdf. So far, only the abstract has been extended and some minor corrections made elsewhere in the paper. I am not further publicising the existence of this document.

Vixra has now accepted this first revision.

Next steps:
submission to arXiv;
work on extension to cover later publications of Joy Christian;
revision and journal submission of https://arxiv.org/abs/1507.00106 "Event based simulation of an EPR-B experiment by local hidden variables: epr-simple and epr-clocked";
revision and journal submission of https://arxiv.org/abs/1505.04431 "Pearle's Hidden-Variable Model Revisited"

This clears up a substantial part of my backlog (three years "hors de combat" due to health issues); gives me space to work on new stuff.

These steps are made possible by the publication in prominent journals, and hence wider public circulation, of Joy Christian's latest works.

http://vixra.org/abs/1504.0102 '"Does Geometric Algebra Provide a Loophole to Bell's Theorem?" is now extended to cover the work of recent years, updated on viXra, and *submitted* to a journal. An arXiv submission is "on hold"
https://arxiv.org/abs/1505.04431 "Pearle's Hidden-Variable Model Revisited", and
https://arxiv.org/abs/1507.00106 "Event based simulation of an EPR-B experiment by local hidden variables: epr-simple and epr-clocked"
are also *submitted*. I'll update the arXiv versions.
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby local » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:45 am

gill1109 wrote:Vixra has now accepted this first revision.

Congratulations Richard! We all know how hard it is to be accepted by viXra. Just ask George Rajna. :lol:

http://vixra.org/author/george_rajna

Richard rubbing shoulders with the greats!
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:58 pm

local wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Vixra has now accepted this first revision.

Congratulations Richard! We all know how hard it is to be accepted by viXra. Just ask George Rajna. :lol:

http://vixra.org/author/george_rajna

Richard rubbing shoulders with the greats!

Yeah!!!!

But I must say, if I see further than others it is only because I am surrounded by dwarves.

I am now having a long discussion with arXiv moderation minions. I think that their strategy is to be so illogically stupid, and ask such stupid questions, that I get angry, lose my cool, and thereby prove that they were correct to suppress my contribution to science.
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby local » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:19 am

gill1109 wrote: I am now having a long discussion with arXiv moderation minions. I think that their strategy is to be so illogically stupid, and ask such stupid questions, that I get angry, lose my cool, and thereby prove that they were correct to suppress my contribution to science.

Classic thinking, if someone disagrees with me they must be illogically stupid. Go for viXra, Richard, it's more your style. ;)
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Re: EPR / Bell Symposium Announcement

Postby gill1109 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:28 pm

local wrote:
gill1109 wrote: I am now having a long discussion with arXiv moderation minions. I think that their strategy is to be so illogically stupid, and ask such stupid questions, that I get angry, lose my cool, and thereby prove that they were correct to suppress my contribution to science.

Classic thinking, if someone disagrees with me they must be illogically stupid. Go for viXra, Richard, it's more your style. ;)

I'm author of 1 article on viXra. It is under review with a serious journal. If you have new comments on it, please raise them here: http://vixra.org/abs/1504.0102
The paper contains some of the points I will be raising in my debate with Joy Christian or one of his supporters, at our symposium. Joy's responses are already well known.
Obviously, anyone who disagrees with me without a sound logical argument for their point of view, is illogically stupid. That's an axiom, whose validity is confirmed for me, daily.

I'm registered as the author of 53 articles on arXiv. Most of them have appeared in peer-reviewed papers.
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