FrediFizzx wrote:Hmm... apparently there is some disagreement on what "hidden variable" means exactly. Searching Google is not very helpful either. I suggest that we go with the notion that "hidden" means that the variable can't ever be observable.
That is a good place to start, and I certainly come at this from the personal view that "hidden" means "real but not observable" no matter how clever your experiment. But to make that stick as a matter of science not philosophy, the deeper and threshold question, IMHO, is about what constitutes an "element of reality." Because presumably, a "hidden" variable is a "hidden" element of reality, and then we are into what is meant by "hidden," and what gives rise to something becoming "hidden."
This, IMHO, this is where the uncertainty principle of what Richard calls the "conventional dogmas of conventional QM" comes into play, because of how it gives rise to physical quantities which are not "simultaneously observable," leading to both observable and unobservable elements of reality. Which is to say, I believe, personally, that the difficulties many have had with the uncertainty principle over the years stem from not properly recognizing "inability to simultaneously measure" for local systems or single particles as the root source of local hidden variables in the physical world. I am not going to try to shove this opinion of mine down anybody else's throat, but I will try to lay out objective evidence which I hope may convince you also of this view on a scientific, not personal opinion, basis.
Specifically, at bottom, we need to get past my humble opinion, and Richard's humble opinion, and Heine's humble opinion, and Fred's humble opinion, and Mikko's humble opinion, and everybody else's opinion humble or not, and follow the wisdom of EPR that "the elements of the physical reality cannot be determined by
a priori philosophical considerations, but must be found by an appeal to results of experiments and measurements."
Can everyone at least agree to that?In sum, can we all start out at least from the same opinion about using this EPR wisdom to identify elements of reality, even if for now we do not necessarily share the same opinion as what those elements of reality will turn out to be?
Jay