Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:41 pm

Jarek wrote:Functioning of Shor's algorithm is one of consequences of quantum mechanics - if you want to predict all, you also need this one.

Regarding Hardy, you write (91) is equivalent (61), but the latter says that probability is zero: it is forbidden for all lambda, while the former only says that average over lambda is zero.

There is no inconsistency between what is predicted by quantum mechanics for the Hardy state and what is predicted by my model. That is quite clear from the calculations in my paper.

Shor's algorithm does not concern me. My goal has been to reproduce the quantum mechanical predictions of all quantum correlations, regardless of what the underlying quantum state is.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Postby Jarek » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:43 pm

The difficulty of Hardy paradox is completely forbidding some possibilities, but you only work on averages - the base of your construction is equivalence between (61) and (91), which I see incorrect. I am leaving it unless explained.

Shor algorithm concerns quantum correlations of prepared and processed quantum state - fits your restriction.
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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Jarek wrote:The difficulty of Hardy paradox is completely forbidding some possibilities, but you only work on averages - the base of your construction is equivalence between (61) and (91), which I see incorrect. I am leaving it unless explained.

Shor algorithm concerns quantum correlations of prepared and processed quantum state - fits your restriction.

There is no difficulty because the quantum mechanical predictions of the Hardy state and the 3-sphere predictions of the Hardy state are identical.

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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Postby gill1109 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:38 am

Jarek wrote:The difficulty of Hardy paradox is completely forbidding some possibilities, but you only work on averages - the base of your construction is equivalence between (61) and (91), which I see incorrect. I am leaving it unless explained.

Shor algorithm concerns quantum correlations of prepared and processed quantum state - fits your restriction.

In the Hardy paradox a certain average is zero. If Christian can reproduce the mean values predicted by the Hardy state and the Hardy measurements, then his model also says that something can never happen.

Jarek wrote:Quantum algorithms, especially Shor, are the ultimate test.
If you can effectively simulate them avoiding exponential cost of superposition, you will take all the spotlight from this currently huge field, immediately convince everybody, enforce rapid replacement of used cryptography ...
If you cannot, then your hidden variable is still missing something - might handle simple cases, but does not generalize.


The impact on quantum algorithms is a bit different from what you suggest.

1) if Christian's model can be transferred to an event-by-event simulation of a local hidden variables model which can also imitate (with no loss of speed) various standard unitary transformations, then we can factor large integers very fast on classical computers, and indeed, quantum computers are superfluous and standard cryptography used in internet banking etc needs to be replaced.

2) if Christian's model of the singlet correlations (and violation of Bell's inequality) can be transferred to an event-by-event simulation of a local hidden variables model then upcoming quantum cryptography and quantum key distribution is destroyed, because an insider can surreptitously replace the quantum components of such a system with classical computers; which of course are able to "clone" data without anyone noticing; so the users can be fooled into believing they have established quantum securely shared random strings for use as cryptographic keys, but the insider actually can reproduce those keys and hence also decode all future messages sent in classical channels, bu encrypted using the secret quantum generated keys.

Either way, if Christian's work is correct, the whole quantum computer hype collapses.

Now, it was published years ago, so everybody who could want to know Christian's methods, can just read his papers and copy the computer code written by Fred and others. I suspect that clandestine agencies are already working on implementing Christian's model as a trojan horse in order to infiltrate their enemy's supposedly quantum cryptographically secure communication system. They benefit by everyone believing that Christian's work is incorrect. So, it is not being suppressed by the establishment, in order to keep the quantum hype alive; it is being suppressed by the Illuminati, who are going to use it for world domination, and benefit from everyone else believing that Christian's work is discredited.

This can apply both to Shor's algorithm - a classical computer implementation of the algorithm with no loss of speed would be a splendid tool for the Illuminati - and to quantum key distribution. It's a win win situation for them. But everybody has to believe that Christian's work is not worth looking at. Otherwise they lose their fantastic opportunity for world domination.
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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Postby Jarek » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:23 am

Indeed such working local hidden variable model would e.g. make banking no longer secure (elliptic curves are also prone) ... fortunately Christian doesn't have such mundane goals.

Returning to Hardy, amplitude of |11> is zero, what means its probability is zero, that it is forbidden - this is much stronger condition than just zeroing average over hidden variable used by Christian - do you see (61) and (91) equivalent in his https://arxiv.org/pdf/0904.4259 ?
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Re: Can local hidden variable models handle Hardy's paradox?

Postby Joy Christian » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:31 am

Jarek wrote:Indeed such working local hidden variable model would e.g. make banking no longer secure (elliptic curves are also prone) ... fortunately Christian doesn't have such mundane goals.

Returning to Hardy, amplitude of |11> is zero, what means its probability is zero, that it is forbidden - this is much stronger condition than just zeroing average over hidden variable used by Christian - do you see (61) and (91) equivalent in his https://arxiv.org/pdf/0904.4259 ?

As I noted before, there is no problem here because every quantum mechanical prediction of the Hardy state is identical to the 3-sphere prediction of the Hardy state.

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