Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:24 am

Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:I just turned 69 and I have a lot of hobbies beyond stalking Bell deniers. And ... their quality is decreasing. The 2015 experiments have really dampened their enthusiasm. Still no local realistic computer simulation of a loophole-free Bell experiment.

Unfortunately, the so-called loophole-free experiments of 2015 prove absolutely nothing. With only 256 events I can fit an elephant in the data and you would not be able to prevent me.

What about the 300 million events at NIST, or the 3000 million events in Vienna?

BTW, "Heinera" is a real person.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby Joy Christian » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:45 am

gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:I just turned 69 and I have a lot of hobbies beyond stalking Bell deniers. And ... their quality is decreasing. The 2015 experiments have really dampened their enthusiasm. Still no local realistic computer simulation of a loophole-free Bell experiment.

Unfortunately, the so-called loophole-free experiments of 2015 prove absolutely nothing. With only 256 events I can fit an elephant in the data and you would not be able to prevent me.

What about the 300 million events at NIST, or the 3000 million events in Vienna?

BTW, "Heinera" is a real person.

Even 3 trillion events are irrelevant without the assumption of the additivity of expectation values, which is not a valid assumption for hidden variable theories.

I do not have any evidence of the claimed reality of Heinera.

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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:38 am

Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:I just turned 69 and I have a lot of hobbies beyond stalking Bell deniers. And ... their quality is decreasing. The 2015 experiments have really dampened their enthusiasm. Still no local realistic computer simulation of a loophole-free Bell experiment.

Unfortunately, the so-called loophole-free experiments of 2015 prove absolutely nothing. With only 256 events I can fit an elephant in the data and you would not be able to prevent me.

What about the 300 million events at NIST, or the 3000 million events in Vienna?
BTW, "Heinera" is a real person.

Even 3 trillion events are irrelevant without the assumption of the additivity of expectation values, which is not a valid assumption for hidden variable theories.
I do not have any evidence of the claimed reality of Heinera.

As I said, you have found a rather nice short proof of the Kochen-Specker theorem (in dimension 4 or higher). It is worth publishing.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby Joy Christian » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:20 am

gill1109 wrote:
As I said, you have found a rather nice short proof of the Kochen-Specker theorem (in dimension 4 or higher). It is worth publishing.

It is under consideration by a journal. So is my Bertlmann's socks paper, by a different journal. I am going to keep you busy until one of us is six feet under.

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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:06 am

Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:As I said, you have found a rather nice short proof of the Kochen-Specker theorem (in dimension 4 or higher). It is worth publishing.

It is under consideration by a journal. So is my Bertlmann's socks paper, by a different journal. I am going to keep you busy until one of us is six feet under.

Great! I look forward to continuing the game.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:59 am

Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote: It took you two months to stalk out that my octonion-like paper is published in Communications in Algebra. And Lasenby's paper was published on the 22nd of February 2020 and only now you notice it.

Great! I for one wasn't aware of Lasenby's paper until now, either. But it's a very interesting piece of work from one of the legends in the field, so thanks for bringing it to my attention!

The legend he certainly is. But sadly, in his critique of my paper, he has simply copy-pasted Gill's incorrect arguments from the discussion thread of my RSOS paper. As I noted above, I have refuted his critique in the following preprint, which I have posted on ReseachGate and Academia.Edu:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341642071_Reply_to_A_1d_Up_Approach_to_Conformal_Geometric_Algebra_Applications_in_Line_Fitting_and_Quantum_Mechanics
https://www.academia.edu/43165082/Reply_to_A_1d_Up_Approach_to_Conformal_Geometric_Algebra_Applications_in_Line_Fitting_and_Quantum_Mechanics_
It is unfortunate that, like Gill, you will not understand either Lasenby's paper or my response to it.

I do understand both very well indeed, thank you.

I suggest that you extend your answer to Lasenby with a response to the substantial comments on John Baez' blog https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2020/09/new_normed_division_algebra_fo.html. Those are the comments of Theo Johnson-Freyd (an assistant professor at the Perimeter Institute with an impressive list of relevant publications on Google Scholar) https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2020/09/new_normed_division_algebra_fo.html#c058564, and John Baez' comment https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2020/09/new_normed_division_algebra_fo.html#c058567.

I hope you will also react to my latest analysis of a number of your works, https://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1504, published as Entropy 2020, 22(1), 61 (21 pp.); https://doi.org/10.3390/e22010061. The arXiv version includes a correction note which has also been submitted to Entropy. This corrects also the error I earlier made. The correction note is as follows: It is easy to check that in Cl(0,3), the bivectors square to −1, not to +1 [as you correctly mention in your new paper!]. However, the trivector (pseudo-scalar) M squares to +1. It follows that (M + 1)(M − 1) = 0, hence we have two non-zero vectors whose product is zero.

In my just mentioned paper I moreover write: [Christian] writes "the corresponding algebraic representation space ... is nothing but the eight-dimensional even sub-algebra of the 2^4 = 16-dimensional Clifford algebra Cl(4,0)".
This space is well known to be isomorphic to Cl(0,3). And as Lasenzby points out, Cl(0, 3) can itself be represented as a set of pairs of quaternions with a particular multiplication table. This space *cannot* be given a norm since it does have zero divisors - thus elements which are not zero but whose product is zero. Their norms must be non-zero hence the product of their norms cannot be equal to he norm of their product.

I'm sorry, Lasenby is right, and you simply do not know the correct definitions of the concepts you are using. So you end up with a contradiction to a well known, true theorem. Hence you must en route have made some mistakes. Lasenby is so kind as to show you exactly where your argument also fails in its fine details.

You also say that "Bell's theorem is not a theorem", claiming it makes physical assumptions which are unwarranted. But it can be formulated as a mathematical theorem, and has been formulated and proven rigorously as a purely mathematical theorem by many authors, as I repeatedly have stated (with literature references) in another thread. You claim to have a counterexample to that purely mathematical theorem too, but your counterexample must therefore be in error, and indeed, every version you have published contains such errors. Finally, you have claimed that Bell's argument is wrong since it assumes that a certain self-adjoint operator must be an observable. Then you make physical assumptions about observables. Here, you are not disproving Bell's core mathematical argument, but pointing out the *physical mistake* in von Neumann's no-go theorem.

Thanks for providing a lot of nice materials for a new follow-up paper by myself.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby Joy Christian » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:45 am

***
I have posted the following on the PubPeer thread that Gill has started to have my paper retracted from Communications in Algebra:

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#4

Joy Christian wrote:
In the opening post above, Gill claims to have found a counterexample to my main result (46), but that claim (although seconded by Lasenby) is demonstrably false. Moreover, I have already refuted Gill’s claim in the appendix of the paper. The mistake Gill has made in his counterexample is that he has chosen ad hoc coefficients for his multivectors that are not permitted by the constraint (50) stemming from the normalization condition, namely, by

f = q0 q7 + q1 q6 + q2 q5 + q3 q4 = 0,

where q0 to q7 are the real coefficients of the eight-dimensional elements of the algebra K. This constraint gives the arithmetic contradiction +/-1 = 0 for Gill’s alleged counterexample rendering it invalid, because he assumes q0 = +/-1 and q7 = +1 with the rest of qi = 0, leading to the arithmetic absurdity f = +/-1 = 0.

Incidentally, this is the fifth paper of mine Gill has tried to have retracted over the past eight years by abusing the retraction culture. On a previous occasion, Gill was successful in having one of my papers retracted from the journal Annals of Physics, but it is now republished. The details of that retraction can be found at the following link:

http://retractionwatch.com/2016/09/30/p ... ved-study/

There was nothing wrong with that paper, and the journal did not provide any evidence of mistake in the paper even privately. In any case, it is now republished in a journal of much higher standing:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8836453

The other papers of mine that Gill has tried extremely hard to have retracted but failed so far are:

(1) https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 014-2412-2

(2) https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... sos.180526

(3) https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8836453

Two more of my papers are in the pipeline with their preprint forms existing on the arXiv, but Gill has already threatened to have them retracted if published. So watch this space.

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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:55 pm

Joy Christian wrote:***
I have posted the following on the PubPeer thread that Gill has started to have my paper retracted from Communications in Algebra:

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#4

Joy Christian wrote:
In the opening post above, Gill claims to have found a counterexample to my main result (46), but that claim (although seconded by Lasenby) is demonstrably false. Moreover, I have already refuted Gill’s claim in the appendix of the paper. The mistake Gill has made in his counterexample is that he has chosen ad hoc coefficients for his multivectors that are not permitted by the constraint (50) stemming from the normalization condition, namely, by

f = q0 q7 + q1 q6 + q2 q5 + q3 q4 = 0,

where q0 to q7 are the real coefficients of the eight-dimensional elements of the algebra K. This constraint gives the arithmetic contradiction +/-1 = 0 for Gill’s alleged counterexample rendering it invalid, because he assumes q0 = +/-1 and q7 = +1 with the rest of qi = 0, leading to the arithmetic absurdity f = +/-1 = 0.

Incidentally, this is the fifth paper of mine Gill has tried to have retracted over the past eight years by abusing the retraction culture. On a previous occasion, Gill was successful in having one of my papers retracted from the journal Annals of Physics, but it is now republished. The details of that retraction can be found at the following link:

http://retractionwatch.com/2016/09/30/p ... ved-study/

There was nothing wrong with that paper, and the journal did not provide any evidence of mistake in the paper even privately. In any case, it is now republished in a journal of much higher standing:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8836453

The other papers of mine that Gill has tried extremely hard to have retracted but failed so far are:

(1) https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 014-2412-2

(2) https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... sos.180526

(3) https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8836453

Two more of my papers are in the pipeline with their preprint forms existing on the arXiv, but Gill has already threatened to have them retracted if published. So watch this space.


I don't threaten retraction. I might write comments on PubPeer or other appropriate internet fora. I might draw the attention of editors to those comments. I have complained about perceived plagiarism in paper (3) (IEEE Access). It would be easy to fix the problem to my satisfaction. Joy Christian states that he does not need to change a single word (I am not quoting him literally, but this was the message I got loud and clear). Some lawyers and IT specialists are looking at the case. I suspect they will find it too difficult to resolve and anyway, such matters can hardly be very high on anyone's agenda at the moment. BTW, that paper certainly got "fast track" treatment. The pdf says: "Received September 9, 2019, accepted September 10, 2019, date of publication September 13, 2019, date of current version September 26, 2019. The associate editor coordinating the review of this manuscript and approving it for publication was Derek Abbott." I suppose Christian and Abbott had had previous private discussions about it.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:49 am

gill1109 wrote:
I don't threaten retraction. I might write comments on PubPeer or other appropriate internet fora. I might draw the attention of editors to those comments. I have complained about perceived plagiarism in paper (3) (IEEE Access). It would be easy to fix the problem to my satisfaction. Joy Christian states that he does not need to change a single word (I am not quoting him literally, but this was the message I got loud and clear). Some lawyers and IT specialists are looking at the case. I suspect they will find it too difficult to resolve and anyway, such matters can hardly be very high on anyone's agenda at the moment. BTW, that paper certainly got "fast track" treatment. The pdf says: "Received September 9, 2019, accepted September 10, 2019, date of publication September 13, 2019, date of current version September 26, 2019. The associate editor coordinating the review of this manuscript and approving it for publication was Derek Abbott." I suppose Christian and Abbott had had previous private discussions about it.

I could report your post and request Fred to ban you from the forum for the fourth time. But this time I won't report the post but give you a warning myself. Your post and recent actions break two conditions set by Fred that had got you banned from the forum in previous occasions: First, you must not try to have my published papers retracted. Currently, you are actively engaged in having my IEEE Access paper and my math paper in Communications in Algebra retracted. These actions break one of the conditions Fred had imposed on you. The second condition was that you give up your bogus and cooked up plagiarism claim. You were forbidden to bring up such personal issues on this forum and were asked to give up such actions altogether, but again you are creeping them in slowly as if Fred will not notice. Well, I have noticed and could have reported your post. But instead, I prefer to give you a warning myself.

As for the publication of my IEEE Access paper, to put the record straight and save you from Moldoveanu-type wild speculations, the journal works on a binary system --- i.e., either reject or accept a paper. Nothing in between. In other words, each revision of a manuscript is considered a fresh new submission. My paper was first submitted on 07-April-2019 and was rejected on 13-May-2019. A revised manuscript, with my responses to all 17 reviewer reports, was submitted on 08-Aug-2019 and that was again rejected on 05-Sep-2019. A revised manuscript was submitted for the third time, together with my responses to all the reviewer reports, on 09-Sep-2019, and this time it was accepted on the 10-Sep-2019. The paper was published online on the 13-Sep-2019 because it is a prerequisite for any submission to IEEE Access that the manuscript is prepared in the format of the journal. Thus, once the paper is accepted, it is only a matter of uploading it on the publisher's website. I was disappointed that it took them three days to do that.

During my entire academic life, I have never had to respond to 17 reviewers' bitter complaints about my paper in two rounds of peer-review, with many of them saying that Gill has already refuted the author's model. Usually, in physics, there are at most two reviewers, and occasionally three. But just one reviewer is not uncommon. Now imagine 17 diehard Bell-worshipers attacking your paper in two rounds of peer review. No one's work has gone through the amount of peer review for 13 years like my work on refutations of Bell's theorem has gone through.

So, give up your conspiracy theories, give up your bogus plagiarism claim, and engage with science; or else prepare to face the consequences. As you know very well, I can bite back.

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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:58 am

Joy Christian wrote:
gill1109 wrote:I don't threaten retraction. I might write comments on PubPeer or other appropriate internet fora. I might draw the attention of editors to those comments. I have complained about perceived plagiarism in paper (3) (IEEE Access). It would be easy to fix the problem to my satisfaction. Joy Christian states that he does not need to change a single word (I am not quoting him literally, but this was the message I got loud and clear). Some lawyers and IT specialists are looking at the case. I suspect they will find it too difficult to resolve and anyway, such matters can hardly be very high on anyone's agenda at the moment. BTW, that paper certainly got "fast track" treatment. The pdf says: "Received September 9, 2019, accepted September 10, 2019, date of publication September 13, 2019, date of current version September 26, 2019. The associate editor coordinating the review of this manuscript and approving it for publication was Derek Abbott." I suppose Christian and Abbott had had previous private discussions about it.

I could report your post and request Fred to ban you from the forum for the fourth time. But this time I won't report the post but give you a warning myself. Your post and recent actions break two conditions set by Fred that had got you banned from the forum in previous occasions: First, you must not try to have my published papers retracted. Currently, you are actively engaged in having my IEEE Access paper and my math paper in Communications in Algebra retracted. These actions break one of the conditions Fred had imposed on you. The second condition was that you give up your bogus and cooked up plagiarism claim. You were forbidden to bring up such personal issues on this forum and were asked to give up such actions altogether, but again you are creeping them in slowly as if Fred will not notice. Well, I have noticed and could have reported your post. But instead, I prefer to give you a warning myself.
As for the publication of my IEEE Access paper, to put the record straight and save you from Moldoveanu-type wild speculations, the journal works on a binary system --- i.e., either reject or accept a paper. Nothing in between. In other words, each revision of a manuscript is considered a fresh new submission. My paper was first submitted on 07-April-2019 and was rejected on 13-May-2019. A revised manuscript, with my responses to all 17 reviewer reports, was submitted on 08-Aug-2019 and that was again rejected on 05-Sep-2019. A revised manuscript was submitted for the third time, together with my responses to all the reviewer reports, on 09-Sep-2019, and this time it was accepted on the 10-Sep-2019. The paper was published online on the 13-Sep-2019 because it is a prerequisite for any submission to IEEE Access that the manuscript is prepared in the format of the journal. Thus, once the paper is accepted, it is only a matter of uploading it on the publisher's website. I was disappointed that it took them three days to do that.
During my entire academic life, I have never had to respond to 17 reviewers' bitter complaints about my paper in two rounds of peer-review, with many of them saying that Gill has already refuted the author's model. Usually, in physics, there are at most two reviewers, and occasionally three. But just one reviewer is not uncommon. Now imagine 17 diehard Bell-worshipers attacking your paper in two rounds of peer review. No one's work has gone through the amount of peer review for 13 years like my work on refutations of Bell's theorem has gone through.
So, give up your conspiracy theories, give up your bogus plagiarism claim, and engage with science; or else prepare to face the consequences. As you know very well, I can bite back.

I am not trying to get any paper by you or by anyone else retracted. Presently I feel very strongly that once published papers should remain available, in science we must not not fake the scientific record or try to rewrite history. I am delighted when you do publish something interesting (your papers are always interesting), because it often gives me an opportunity to publish, too.

My plagiarism claim was formally submitted a year ago, also extensively discussed in several fora. If you would like to see my correspondence with IEEE, I can send it to you.

Another condition for my presence on this forum was that I did not take any secretive actions. I agree, I must, for instance, warn you well in advance if I have a draft publication which disagrees with something you have written. My ambition is to publish a paper, sometime, together with you and Fred and Jay. Your work has stimulated a proposal for a workshop, to which I also invite all those interested in these issues on this forum. Organisers include Jay Yablon and Sabine Hossenfelder and we want to give the limelight to all the competing approaches to Bell's theorem. https://gill1109.com/2020/10/02/time-reality-and-bells-theorem/

Please practice what you preach. This forum is Fred's forum.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:45 pm

:( :( Oh no! https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 20.1834408 (retraction of pure math paper by the journal). Joy’s response. http://einstein-physics.org/wp-content/ ... C-in-A.pdf , some math: Joy’s algebra is the even sub algebra of Cl(4,0)(R) which is isomorphic to Cl(0,3)(R) which has an element called M such that M^2 = 1. Hence (M-1)(M+1) = 0. Hence, if it can be given a *multiplicative* norm, then ||M-1||.||M+1||=0. Hence M = +/- 1. This is bad news for the RSOS paper too.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby Joy Christian » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:25 pm

gill1109 wrote:
Oh no! https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 20.1834408 (retraction of pure math paper by the journal).

I have responded to this here: https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#5

gill1109 wrote:
Joy’s algebra is the even sub algebra of Cl(4,0)(R) which is isomorphic to Cl(0,3)(R)

This is complete Wikipedia-level nonsense. Gill has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

gill1109 wrote:
--- which has an element called M such that M^2 = 1. Hence (M-1)(M+1) = 0. Hence, if it can be given a *multiplicative* norm, then ||M-1||.||M+1||=0. Hence M = +/- 1.

I have pointed out Gill's mistake in this argument here: https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#4

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my pure math paper. Any competent undergraduate can verify my calculations in the paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1908.06172.pdf.

The paper has been submitted to another pure math journal with a higher standing and greater scientific integrity. My calculation is also supported by one prominent expert on the subject.

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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby FrediFizzx » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:00 am

Well, good luck with it, Joy. I used to like John Baez but now I see he is just another person that can't think for himself or didn't want to take the time to. I've been through that math forwards and backwards doing simulations and computer verifications of it. There is nothing wrong with it. Who would have thought? 7-spheres constructed from Euclidean primitives! It is probably the way Nature does it instead of via pure octonions.
.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:07 am

Good luck, all of you! I hope the prominent expert will speak out publicly, or anonymously, e.g. here. You could alternatively suggest to Derek Abbott that he or she is asked to referee my paper on the Bertlmann stuff for IEEE Access.

It will become a “Comment on ...” and then (if it is accepted) they don’t charge a publishing fee. That’s fortunate.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:53 am

FrediFizzx wrote:Well, good luck with it, Joy. I used to like John Baez but now I see he is just another person that can't think for himself or didn't want to take the time to. I've been through that math forwards and backwards doing simulations and computer verifications of it. There is nothing wrong with it. Who would have thought? 7-spheres constructed from Euclidean primitives! It is probably the way Nature does it instead of via pure octonions.
.

Fred, take a look at the multiplication table, Figure 1, in Joy's RSOS paper. In fact, there are two tables, one for lambda = +1 and one for lambda = -1. These are the multiplication tables for 8 basis vectors of, in principle, two real vector spaces K+ and K-. But K- and K+ are the same linear space! The spans, i.e., the sets of all real linear combinations of each 8 basis elements are the same. Let me call it K. The space K is closed under multiplication (everything *in* either table is +/- one of the 8 basis elements of either space; so all linear combinations, multiplied together, also form a linear combination). The space has a zero and a unit. It's a unitary, non-commutative, algebra, but it is associative, which is nice [that has to be checked, somehow]. In fact, the space K is (or is isomorphic to) Cl(0,3)(R), as Joy himself does remark, since, as one can see directly, it *is* the even subalgebra of Cl(4, 0). The associativity of K follows from the associativity of Cl(4, 0). It is a trivial matter to verify this isomorphism with, e.g. GAviewer. It is moreover a well known fact from the theory of classification of real Clifford algebras. [The octonions are not associative; all Clifford algebras, by definition, are].

Now let me define M = lambda I_3 e_infty. M is an element of K. It's square is +1, which can be read off the multiplication table. So we have M^2 = 1 and hence M^2 - 1 = 0.
Therefore (M - 1)(M+1) = 0.
Suppose we could find a norm ||.|| making K a normed unitary algebra. By definition, this would mean that the norm ||.|| *is* a norm, which furthermore satisfies ||AB|| = ||A||.||B||, ||A|| = 0 if and only if A = 0, ||a A|| = |a| ||A||, ||1|| = 1.
Joy claims that he has been able to define such a norm on his algebra K.
Now define A = M - 1, B = M + 1. These are two elements of K and neither is equal to zero. We have AB = 0. One says that A and B are zero divsors. Neither is zero but their product is. It follows that ||A||.||B|| = ||0|| = 0. Therefore, either ||A|| = 0, or ||B|| = 0. Therefore, either A = 0, or B = 0. Therefore, either M = 1 or M = -1 ... a contradiction.

You can check all this really easily with any decent Geometric Algebra computer algebra program, e.g., GAViewer. I did that, myself, several times. Very educative!

A division algebra is a unitary algebra with a norm making it a normed vector space and such that the norm is multiplicative and such that every element except 0 has a multiplicative inverse. In a division algebra, there are no zero divisors. A and B just discussed are zero divisors. If such a space were associative and if B had a multiplicative inverse, then from AB = 0 we would get A = A B B{-1} = 0 B^{-1} =0.

A famous theorem states that the *only* normed unitary division algebras are R, C, H and O (reals, complex numbers, quaternions, octonions). Christian claims he has found a norm on his algebra, which makes it a normed algebra, and which satisfies ||AB||= ||A||.||B||. But then his algebra cannot have zero divisors. But it does have zero divisors, in particular: (M - 1)(M + 1) = 0.

You can read about all this here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurwitz%27s_theorem_(composition_algebras) and here https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/octonions/node2.html
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby Joy Christian » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:11 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Well, good luck with it, Joy. I used to like John Baez but now I see he is just another person that can't think for himself or didn't want to take the time to. I've been through that math forwards and backwards doing simulations and computer verifications of it. There is nothing wrong with it. Who would have thought? 7-spheres constructed from Euclidean primitives! It is probably the way Nature does it instead of via pure octonions.
.

Fred, take a look at the multiplication table, Figure 1, in Joy's RSOS paper. In fact, there are two tables, one for lambda = +1 and one for lambda = -1. These are the multiplication tables for 8 basis vectors of, in principle, two real vector spaces K+ and K-. But K- and K+ are the same linear space! The spans, i.e., the sets of all real linear combinations of each 8 basis elements are the same. Let me call it K. The space K is closed under multiplication (everything *in* either table is +/- one of the 8 basis elements of either space; so all linear combinations, multiplied together, also form a linear combination). The space has a zero and a unit. It's a unitary, non-commutative, algebra, but it is associative, which is nice [that has to be checked, somehow]. In fact, the space K is (or is isomorphic to) Cl(0,3)(R), as Joy himself does remark, since, as one can see directly, it *is* the even subalgebra of Cl(4, 0). The associativity of K follows from the associativity of Cl(4, 0). It is a trivial matter to verify this isomorphism with, e.g. GAviewer. It is moreover a well known fact from the theory of classification of real Clifford algebras. [The octonions are not associative; all Clifford algebras, by definition, are].

Now let me define M = lambda I_3 e_infty. M is an element of K. It's square is +1, which can be read off the multiplication table. So we have M^2 = 1 and hence M^2 - 1 = 0.
Therefore (M - 1)(M+1) = 0.
Suppose we could find a norm ||.|| making K a normed unitary algebra. By definition, this would mean that the norm ||.|| *is* a norm, which furthermore satisfies ||AB|| = ||A||.||B||, ||A|| = 0 if and only if A = 0, ||a A|| = |a| ||A||, ||1|| = 1.
Joy claims that he has been able to define such a norm on his algebra K.
Now define A = M - 1, B = M + 1. These are two elements of K and neither is equal to zero. We have AB = 0. One says that A and B are zero divsors. Neither is zero but their product is. It follows that ||A||.||B|| = ||0|| = 0. Therefore, either ||A|| = 0, or ||B|| = 0. Therefore, either A = 0, or B = 0. Therefore, either M = 1 or M = -1 ... a contradiction.

You can check all this really easily with any decent Geometric Algebra computer algebra program, e.g., GAViewer. I did that, myself, several times. Very educative!

A division algebra is a unitary algebra with a norm making it a normed vector space and such that the norm is multiplicative and such that every element except 0 has a multiplicative inverse. In a division algebra, there are no zero divisors. A and B just discussed are zero divisors. If such a space were associative and if B had a multiplicative inverse, then from AB = 0 we would get A = A B B{-1} = 0 B^{-1} =0.

A famous theorem states that the *only* normed unitary division algebras are R, C, H and O (reals, complex numbers, quaternions, octonions). Christian claims he has found a norm on his algebra, which makes it a normed algebra, and which satisfies ||AB||= ||A||.||B||. But then his algebra cannot have zero divisors. But it does have zero divisors, in particular: (M - 1)(M + 1) = 0.

You can read about all this here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurwitz%27s_theorem_(composition_algebras) and here https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/octonions/node2.html

This is all complete and utter nonsense that I have repeatedly refuted. Absolute rubbish by someone who has no clue what he is talking about.

***
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby Joy Christian » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 pm

***
Why does Gill keep repeating his completely stupid and ignorant argument all over the place despite the fact that I have repeatedly refuted it for the past two years?

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#8

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#9

Now he has plastered the same garbage all over PubPeer. I do not understand his desire to display his ignorance and stupidity all over the Internet over and over again.

I guess he is emboldened because he has successfully recruited John the Biased to his cause and have my mathematics paper retracted from Communications in Algebra.

***
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:46 pm

Joy Christian wrote:***
Why does Gill keep repeating his completely stupid and ignorant argument all over the place despite the fact that I have repeatedly refuted it for the past two years?

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#8

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#9

Now he has plastered the same garbage all over PubPeer. I do not understand his desire to display his ignorance and stupidity all over the Internet over and over again.

I guess he is emboldened because he has successfully recruited John the Biased to his cause and have my mathematics paper retracted from Communications in Algebra.

***

You don’t refute my arguments in your contributions to those PubPeer threads. You just repeat that you proved the norm relation in two different ways in your paper and claim that nobody has shown that those arguments are wrong (which is not true).

But anyway, it doesn’t matter, I have written out a proof that your norm relation can’t be true in several places and nobody has shown where I make a mistake in my argument. On Baez’ blog, several other mathematicians wrote out proofs, and nobody has pointed out mistakes. Your theorem contradicts a theorem which has been proved by several eminent mathematicians in the past, and checked and re-checked by generations of mathematicians since then. You don’t show us where the mistakes are in those works.

You say that one eminent mathematician supports you. Let’s hear from them. The editors of RSOS and of IEEE Access say they love controversy. So they will love to publish a note by an eminent mathematician, supporting your case.
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby Joy Christian » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:08 am

gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:***
Why does Gill keep repeating his completely stupid and ignorant argument all over the place despite the fact that I have repeatedly refuted it for the past two years?

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#8

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#9

Now he has plastered the same garbage all over PubPeer. I do not understand his desire to display his ignorance and stupidity all over the Internet over and over again.

I guess he is emboldened because he has successfully recruited John the Biased to his cause and have my mathematics paper retracted from Communications in Algebra.

***

You don’t refute my arguments in your contributions to those PubPeer threads. You just repeat that you proved the norm relation in two different ways in your paper and claim that nobody has shown that those arguments are wrong (which is not true).

But anyway, it doesn’t matter, I have written out a proof that your norm relation can’t be true in several places and nobody has shown where I make a mistake in my argument. On Baez’ blog, several other mathematicians wrote out proofs, and nobody has pointed out mistakes. Your theorem contradicts a theorem which has been proved by several eminent mathematicians in the past, and checked and re-checked by generations of mathematicians since then. You don’t show us where the mistakes are in those works.

You say that one eminent mathematician supports you. Let’s hear from them. The editors of RSOS and of IEEE Access say they love controversy. So they will love to publish a note by an eminent mathematician, supporting your case.

Pure nonsense again. I don't care about John the Biased or any other online bullies you want to recruit to your unhealthy obsession with me. You are a complete ignoramus who knows nothing about the subject of algebra. I have refuted your argument hundreds of times on the RSOS thread of my paper since 2018, and most recently on the following PubPeer thread:

https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09 ... 5CAEE98D#4

The algebra in my RSOS and "octonion-like" papers does not conflict with either Hurwitz's theorem or Frobenius' theorem. But you, like John the Biased, are too ignorant to understand that.

Alternatively, you can find a mistake in the calculation in my paper and prove me wrong. But you are too algebraically challenged to be able to do that. And no mathematician in the world has found a mistake in my calculation because there is none. This fact needs to go through your thick skull. The algebra in my paper is a normed division algebra whether you like it or not.

***
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Re: Bell's Theorem and Normed Division Algebras

Postby gill1109 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:36 am

Joy Christian wrote:Pure nonsense again. I don't care about John the Biased or any other online bullies you want to recruit to your unhealthy obsession with me. You are a complete ignoramus who knows nothing about the subject of algebra. I have refuted your argument hundreds of times on the RSOS thread of my paper since 2018, and most recently on the following PubPeer thread:https://pubpeer.com/publications/E3CC09191C99B14164303D5CAEE98D#4. The algebra in my RSOS and "octonion-like" papers does not conflict with either Hurwitz's theorem or Frobenius' theorem. But you, like John the Biased, are too ignorant to understand that. Alternatively, you can find a mistake in the calculation in my paper and prove me wrong. But you are too algebraically challenged to be able to do that. And no mathematician in the world has found a mistake in my calculation because there is none. This fact needs to go through your thick skull. The algebra in my paper is a normed division algebra whether you like it or not.

Sorry to get you so upset. Honestly, *you* don't seem interested to find the mistake which you apparently claim is present in existing proofs by famous mathematicians of a famous theorem in pure mathematics. So I doubt that any serious mathematician in the world is interested to find a mistake in your proof for you. And I'm just a statistician, so my opinion counts for nothing, so why should I take the trouble to look? But I will take a look again, next time you get this paper published. I trust you'll let us know on this forum when that happens.
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