A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby gill1109 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:03 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Here is one for you produced by the +/-1 outcomes during the constraints. If you subtract that from the straight line data, you get the negative cosine curve.

Cool! 8-)

Yeah, it is pretty cool. I wasn't expecting the data to be so organized in the first plot. It looks like some kind of polynomial cubic function. The trick is to figure out how to split it for stations A and B.
.

Here are some more pretty plots of results of simulation experiments. They are from the latest version of my paper https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6403 "The triangle wave versus the cosine". The paper studies the "spinning coloured disk model" of the so-called EPR-B correlations. It is about the class of all correlation functions which classical physics can generate, in a situation when we expect certain symmetries and "certainty relations". The paper describes many open problems in classical probability theory, some inspired by looking at computer simulations.
Image
Image
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby gill1109 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:28 am

My last picture in my previous post shows that *classical correlations can be stronger than the strongest quantum correlations*. It was hard to find!
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby Heinera » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:57 am

FrediFizzx wrote:I'm going to go ahead and post the code for this new simulation even though I am not entirely satisfied with it..., yet. Perhaps someone else might be interested in tinkering with it to improve it? Or to collaborate with it?

I have to say that I really admire your zealousness when it comes to simulations, Fred. It seems that the others have given up on this (Joy, local and minkwe) and you are the last man standing. Which is sad, since the simulation attempts are what got me interested in this forum in the first place. It has always been a fun exercise to read the code and try to figure out where is the sleight of hand! So keep doing that. You won't disprove Bell's theorem, but maybe you'll stumble onto something novel and interesting.

As I say: Sooner or later everyone gets Bell's theorem. Either you get it immediately by pure logic, or you get it much later by grueling exhaustion of creativity.
Heinera
 
Posts: 917
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:50 am

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:03 am

Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:I'm going to go ahead and post the code for this new simulation even though I am not entirely satisfied with it..., yet. Perhaps someone else might be interested in tinkering with it to improve it? Or to collaborate with it?

I have to say that I really admire your zealousness when it comes to simulations, Fred. It seems that the others have given up on this (Joy, local and minkwe) and you are the last man standing. Which is sad, since the simulation attempts are what got me interested in this forum in the first place. It has always been a fun exercise to read the code and try to figure out where is the sleight of hand! So keep doing that. You won't disprove Bell's theorem, but maybe you'll stumble onto something novel and interesting.

As I say: Sooner or later everyone gets Bell's theorem. Either you get it immediately by pure logic, or you get it much later by grueling exhaustion of creativity.

Thanks, but I don't really care about Bell's junk physics theory. The fact is, is that Nature produces a negative cosine curve using the up and down states of quantum particles event by event after averaging. I'm merely searching for how it does it in a local-realistic way. QM gives no clue beyond "spooky action at a distance". Sorry, but I have to reject that. And you saw how silly the non-local simulation was.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby Joy Christian » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:19 am

Heinera wrote:
Sooner or later everyone gets Bell's theorem.

That is quite true. Pitty, you still haven't got it. Keep working on it. Eventually, you will get it. If you need help, then have a look at one of my papers: https://arxiv.org/abs/1704.02876.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2793
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:54 am

Ok guys, this thread is not specifically about Bell. Let's stay more on topic.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:59 pm

gill1109 wrote:My last picture in my previous post shows that *classical correlations can be stronger than the strongest quantum correlations*. It was hard to find!

This is also stronger than the quantum correlations,

Image

Unfortunately when averaged in with the negative cosine curve data, it gives straight lines. But I'm getting closer I think.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby minkwe » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:16 pm

Heinera wrote:It seems that the others have given up on this (Joy, local and minkwe) and you are the last man standing.

I know you are obsessed with me but you have no idea what I have given up on or not so why do you make such stupid claims? Leave me out of your trolling, please.
minkwe
 
Posts: 1441
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:22 am

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:39 pm

minkwe wrote:
Heinera wrote:It seems that the others have given up on this (Joy, local and minkwe) and you are the last man standing.

I know you are obsessed with me but you have no idea what I have given up on or not so why do you make such stupid claims? Leave me out of your trolling, please.

Come on guys, let's stay on topic here. Please take comments like that to a private message. Or hit the "report a post" button and complain about it.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby gill1109 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:44 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:You saw how silly the non-local simulation was.

Which non-local simulation? One of yours or one of mine?

The simulations which I showed are *local simulations* of the coloured spinning disk model. Curves like those I posted are representative of what LR can do subject to the constraints of symmetry under switch of Alice/Bob, switch of outcomes +/-1, switch of clockwise/anti-clockwise, and perfect correlation and anti-correlation with equal and opposite angles respectively.

Those who believe Bell's logic is correct know that you can't create the negative cosine in that way. Folklore has it that Bell says you must get the saw-tooth, or that you can't get correlations stronger than the saw-tooth. My simulations show you that things are more subtle than that.
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:34 am

I've simplified the code in the A and B station Do loops. Took out one of the if statements as it was un-necessary.

EPRsims/newCS-5.pdf

After trying several other simulation scenarios, I am becoming more convinced that this is the way Nature works or very close to it. The a and b vectors become null vectors during the constraints. What is going on here that you don't see is that the hidden variable lambda is actually varying the radius of the e vector in a non-linear way from 0 to 1. IOW, "z" is the e vector radius. Then that is being compared to the absolute value of n.s to produce the constraints. Most likely all due to the S^3 topology of the singlet.

Image
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:52 am

***
Hi Fred, Can you write down the functions A(a, h) and B(b, h) analytically so that I can understand what is going on? Thanks.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2793
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:17 am

Joy Christian wrote:***
Hi Fred, Can you write down the functions A(a, h) and B(b, h) analytically so that I can understand what is going on? Thanks.
***

That is going to be pretty messy. I'll try later. Just tell me what you don't understand in the 3 Do loops. Might be quicker.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:32 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:***
Hi Fred, Can you write down the functions A(a, h) and B(b, h) analytically so that I can understand what is going on? Thanks.
***

That is going to be pretty messy. I'll try later. Just tell me what you don't understand in the 3 Do loops. Might be quicker.

As far as I can see from the 3 Do loops, Alice gets an instruction from the hidden variable whether to choose a = o or a = a, and likewise for Bob. But that kind of "conspiracy" is not allowed.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2793
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:50 am

Joy Christian wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:***
Hi Fred, Can you write down the functions A(a, h) and B(b, h) analytically so that I can understand what is going on? Thanks.
***

That is going to be pretty messy. I'll try later. Just tell me what you don't understand in the 3 Do loops. Might be quicker.

As far as I can see from the 3 Do loops, Alice gets an instruction from the hidden variable whether to choose a = o or a = a, and likewise for Bob. But that kind of "conspiracy" is not allowed.
***

??? How the heck could Alice and Bob get any instructions from the HV? They still choose whatever they want to choose as evidenced by the RandomInteger functions. It is the S^3 topology that makes a and b null vectors during the constraints. Granted that I am still working on figuring out the math for it.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:15 pm

OK, not so messy after all. Here are the basic functions.






Of course that is not the complete story. Have to figure out how to get the rest in.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby Guest » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:47 am

FrediFizzx wrote:OK, not so messy after all. Here are the basic functions.






Of course that is not the complete story. Have to figure out how to get the rest in.
.


Hi Fred. If I understand it correctly, s is a unit vector. So, what does cos(s) mean in the above? Thanks.
Guest
 

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:12 am

Guest wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:OK, not so messy after all. Here are the basic functions.






Of course that is not the complete story. Have to figure out how to get the rest in.
.


Hi Fred. If I understand it correctly, s is a unit vector. So, what does cos(s) mean in the above? Thanks.

It is the cosine of the particle spin vector relative to the lab frame.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby gill1109 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:10 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
Guest wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:OK, not so messy after all. Here are the basic functions.



Of course that is not the complete story. Have to figure out how to get the rest in.

Hi Fred. If I understand it correctly, s is a unit vector. So, what does cos(s) mean in the above? Thanks.

It is the cosine of the particle spin vector relative to the lab frame.

As far as I know, you can't take the cosine of a vector. But you can take the cosine of the angle between two vectors ...
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: A Completelly Local and Realistic Simulation

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:10 am

gill1109 wrote:As far as I know, you can't take the cosine of a vector. But you can take the cosine of the angle between two vectors ...

Sure. "...relative to the lab frame". What I don't have in there is the null vector. Didn't know how to do that in what Joy was requesting.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Sci.Physics.Foundations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ahrefs [Bot] and 88 guests

cron
CodeCogs - An Open Source Scientific Library