Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challenge

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:29 pm

gill1109 wrote:There are two separate issues here.

(1) What should experimenters do who actually perform Christian's experiment?

(2) What should adjudicators of our little challenge do?

(1) Is settled. They do what Joy said in his paper. If Nature in fact follows the 3-sphere geometry for spinning macroscopic objects, then the experimenters' results will show that just by taking the angular momentum direction measurements and calculating the results like Joy says in his paper. In the real experiment there is no need for "s" or "p". Nature does that as "s" is a hidden variable. They are only needed for the simulation to simulate what Nature does. Does the simulation show that the experiment might be successful? I think it does. It should be done.

(2)I will leave up to the adjudicators to decide but I believe Joy already won this challenge a long time ago in the true spirit of the challenge.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:26 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:There are two separate issues here.

(1) What should experimenters do who actually perform Christian's experiment?

(2) What should adjudicators of our little challenge do?

(1) Is settled. They do what Joy said in his paper. If Nature in fact follows the 3-sphere geometry for spinning macroscopic objects, then the experimenters' results will show that just by taking the angular momentum direction measurements and calculating the results like Joy says in his paper. In the real experiment there is no need for "s" or "p". Nature does that as "s" is a hidden variable. They are only needed for the simulation to simulate what Nature does. Does the simulation show that the experiment might be successful? I think it does. It should be done.

(2)I will leave up to the adjudicators to decide but I believe Joy already won this challenge a long time ago in the true spirit of the challenge.

Nothing needs to be added to what Fred has explained so clearly, but let me endorse it by adding these comments:

It is pretty obvious from Gill's comments above what the experimenters should not do. They should not pay any attention to what Gill has written. They should follow the procedure described on the page 4 of my paper, word-by-word, observe the N spin directions, record them as N points of S^2, and calculate the correlations using eq. (16) of my paper. What they will find is what I have predicted, theoretically, in this simulation (modulo experimental errors): http://rpubs.com/jjc/19298.

What Gill has not understood is the elementary distinction between a theoretical prediction (or a simulation) and the experimental procedure. To realize how ridiculous his comments are, ask yourself the following question: Do the "quantum" experimenters need to know the magic of entanglement, or that of non-locality, or even the mathematics of Pauli matrices, or Dirac brakets, or Schrodinger's wavefunction, to determine the procedure they must follow in their experiments, or to evaluate data? Gill's suggestion that I should tell the experimenters what "s" and "p" are is as ridiculous as suggesting that we should tell the experimenters what a wavefunction is, or whether they should follow the path-integral formalism or the Heisenberg formalism, in performing their experiments and evaluating their data.

As for the adjudicators, I am pretty sure that they will evaluate, fairly and objectively, the evidence I have presented in this simulation: http://rpubs.com/jjc/19298:

alpha <- 0 * pi/180
beta <- 45 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_0_45 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/N)

## [1] -0.6993

alpha <- 0 * pi/180
beta <- 135 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_0_135 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/N)

## [1] 0.703

alpha <- 90 * pi/180
beta <- 45 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_90_45 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/N)

## [1] -0.699

alpha <- 90 * pi/180
beta <- 135 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_90_135 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/N)

## [1] -0.7276

## The Bell-CHSH inequality is violated:

abs(E_0_45 - E_0_135 + E_90_45 + E_90_135)

## [1] 2.829

These calculations are fully consistent with the terms of the Gill challenge. The same N is used for all four calculations, and only the standard dot product is used. That is what Gill has been demanding all along. As far as I can see, the reason why he gets his results wrong is because he is doing the calculations incorrectly.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:15 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:There are two separate issues here.

(1) What should experimenters do who actually perform Christian's experiment?

(2) What should adjudicators of our little challenge do?

(1) Is settled. They do what Joy said in his paper. If Nature in fact follows the 3-sphere geometry for spinning macroscopic objects, then the experimenters' results will show that just by taking the angular momentum direction measurements and calculating the results like Joy says in his paper. In the real experiment there is no need for "s" or "p". Nature does that as "s" is a hidden variable. They are only needed for the simulation to simulate what Nature does. Does the simulation show that the experiment might be successful? I think it does. It should be done.

(2)I will leave up to the adjudicators to decide but I believe Joy already won this challenge a long time ago in the true spirit of the challenge.


(1) The Experiment. As I see it, Fred, future experimenters won't do what Joy actually said in his 2008 paper. You and Christian have effectively agreed that if they followed Christian's instructions as they were then written, they would get classical correlations. It seems to me that the instructions need to be re-written. At best, they were highly ambiguous.

(2) The Challenge. We will first have to see whether or not the adjudicators we had in mind some months ago, do indeed agree to be adjudicators. I have to locate the draft of the letter which we were going to send them. It's somewhere in this forum...
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:49 am

gill1109 wrote:As I see it, Fred, future experimenters won't do what Joy actually said in his 2008 paper. You and Christian have effectively agreed that if they followed Christian's instructions as they were then written, they would get classical correlations. It seems to me that the instructions need to be re-written. At best, they were highly ambiguous.

False.

It is pretty obvious from Gill's comments above what the experimenters should not do. They should not pay any attention to what Gill has written. They should follow the procedure described on the page 4 of my paper, word-by-word, observe the N spin directions, record them as N points of S^2, and calculate the correlations using eq. (16) of my paper. What they will find is what I have predicted, theoretically, in this simulation (modulo experimental errors): http://rpubs.com/jjc/19298.

The evidence presented in the above simulation is completely consistent with the terms of the Gill challenge. To reiterate: (1) a single set of spin directions u for Alice are used to calculate all four correlations, the negative of which, -u, being the spin directions used for Bob; (2) the same number of trials, N, are used in the calculations of all four correlations; and (3) the standard dot product, in the standard formula for the mean value, is used to calculate all four correlations. That is what Gill has been demanding. Moreover, these calculations are not only fully consistent with the terms of the Gill challenge, but also with the eq. (16) of my paper.

The reason why Gill is getting his results wrong is because he is doing his calculations incorrectly.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:47 pm

Joy Christian wrote:The evidence presented in the above simulation is completely consistent with the terms of the Gill challenge. To reiterate: (1) a single set of spin directions u for Alice are used to calculate all four correlations, the negative of which, -u, being the spin directions used for Bob; (2) the same number of trials, N, are used in the calculations of all four correlations; and (3) the standard dot product, in the standard formula for the mean value, is used to calculate all four correlations. That is what Gill has been demanding. Moreover, these calculations are not only fully consistent with the terms of the Gill challenge, but also with the eq. (16) of my paper.

I'm afraid this is not quite correct.

In Christian's script, first of all a total of N = 10 000 pairs of particles are generated. For each correlation (each pair of directions a, b) a different subset of a different size is used, as is easily observed by adding a line in the code printing "N" each time one of the correlations is calculated.

The two files of directions saved in AliceDirections.txt and BobDirections.txt are the subset of directions which are used for just one of the correlations.

Either Christian could submit the big collection of size 10 000 but then he needs an auxiliary randomization and a different formula to compute the correlation, from the one we agreed on. Or Christian could use the agreed formula on four different subsets to compute each of the four correlations of the challenge. But there is no way he can comply with the challenge which requires one set of directions (one value of N determined in advance from the length of the data files) and one particular formula for all four correlations in the challenge.

This is a simple fact of flatland arithmetic which cannot be denied. There is no way to win the challenge. That was the whole point. Christian needs to rethink his experimental paper, and Christian's supporters need to realize that he is not infallible. Is that all so terrible? Sorry, no 10 000 Euro ... and if Christian wants his experiment performed, he had better rethink the theory behind it and rewrite the instructions to the experimenters.

Don't worry, I am going to send the letter to the hoped-for-adjudicators asking them if they will help us, just as soon as I have found the draft which we agreed on. I know it's somewhere in this forum ... Just arrived in Växjo. Wow, Sweden is so beautiful in early June. Endless spruce forests with lakes and rocks and also birch, alder, willow ... birds ... sun. Beautiful blondes.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:58 pm

Can anyone help us by locating the posting on the forum (different thread, but which???) with the draft of the letter to recruit the adjudicators?
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Ben6993 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:19 pm

Try the first posting on Fri 25th April which opened the thread: "The bet on Christian's experiment".
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Heinera » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:23 pm

Check if this link works:
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!top ... LcbmufZpss

It is the Usenet group thread. There is even an endorsement by Joy there (second post in the thread).
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:40 pm

gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:The evidence presented in the above simulation is completely consistent with the terms of the Gill challenge. To reiterate: (1) a single set of spin directions u for Alice are used to calculate all four correlations, the negative of which, -u, being the spin directions used for Bob; (2) the same number of trials, N, are used in the calculations of all four correlations; and (3) the standard dot product, in the standard formula for the mean value, is used to calculate all four correlations. That is what Gill has been demanding. Moreover, these calculations are not only fully consistent with the terms of the Gill challenge, but also with the eq. (16) of my paper.

I'm afraid this is not quite correct.

I am afraid Gill's arguments above are incorrect. It is surprising that after all these months of my repeatedly pointing out what my model is all about, he still makes ridiculous statements that have nothing to do with my model. Let us recall that

(1) his challenge is about my proposed experiment,

(2) my proposed experiment is about testing my local model for the EPRB correlation, and

(3) my local model for the EPRB correlation is based on my hypothesis that we live in a parallelized 3-sphere, S^3, and our usual perceptions that we live in R^3 is just an illusion (a bit like looking around and thinking that the planet we live on is flat).

With this in mind, we can see where Gill has gone wrong. He writes: "In Christian's script, first of all a total of N = 10 000 pairs of particles are generated."

Wrong!!!

This is his biggest mistake. The number of particles generated in my script is approximately 7,070, not 10,000. Remember that the state of the system in my model is given by a pair (u, s), where s is the parameter that appears in p (for details, see the simulation itself, or this paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.2355). Consequently there are only about 7,070 pairs of particles (or states) generated in my script, not 10,000. The "other" particles simply do not exist in S^3. This is the point Gill has failed to understand. This is surprising, because it is not difficult to understand: The state of the system in my model is given by the pair (u, s), not just by u itself.

Next he writes: "For each correlation (each pair of directions a, b) a different subset of a different size is used, as is easily observed by adding a line in the code printing "N" each time one of the correlations is calculated."

This too is not correct. The same number of trials for all four correlations is used in my script. Contrary to Gill's claim, N = 7070. Check this out for yourself:

alpha <- 0 * pi/180
beta <- 45 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_0_45 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/N)
## [1] -0.6993
(N)
## [1] 7070

alpha <- 0 * pi/180
beta <- 135 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_0_135 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/N)
## [1] 0.703
(N)
## [1] 7070

alpha <- 90 * pi/180
beta <- 45 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_90_45 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/N)
## [1] -0.699
(N)
## [1] 7070

alpha <- 90 * pi/180
beta <- 135 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b) ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_90_135 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/N)
## [1] -0.7276
(N)
## [1] 7070

## The Bell-CHSH inequality is violated:

abs(E_0_45 - E_0_135 + E_90_45 + E_90_135)
## [1] 2.829

Please do note that N is the same for all four correlations: N = 7,070.

Next he writes: "The two files of directions saved in AliceDirections.txt and BobDirections.txt are the subset of directions which are used for just one of the correlations."

This too is incorrect. As I explained above, the state of the system in my model is given by the pair (u, s), not just by u itself. Gill continues to think in terms of u alone, and interprets my results accordingly, despite the fact that I have repeatedly pointed out to him that the state of the system in my model is the pair (u, s).

The rest of his comments are misguided. They show that he is not talking about my model, or my proposed experiment, or the above simulation, but something else.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Rick Lockyer » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:00 pm

Joy, you have redefined N inside the for loop from the original 10000, yet the size of the u array remains 10000 in your program. So dividing by 7070 inflates the average values.

Sorry
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:11 pm

Rick Lockyer wrote:Joy, you have redefined N inside the for loop from the original 10000, yet the size of the u array remains 10000 in your program. So dividing by 7070 inflates the average values.

Well yes... That is what the effect that the 3-sphere geometry does for the simulation. This code below works equally well to simulate what we think Nature is doing. It's a simulation; ya have to do something to make it work! Now, whether or not Joy's experiment will give a violation of Bell, can only be found out by doing the experiment but this shows that it just might work if Joy is right about Nature. And... there already is very strong indications that it does work microscopically for the quantum experiments. All roads are pointing to the fact that the real experiment needs to be done. That is the whole point and true sense of Richard's challenge.
Code: Select all
## Richard Gill has offered 10,000 Euroes to anyone who can simulate the N
## directions of angular momentum vectors appearing in equation (16) of my
## experimental proposal: http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3078. In this simulation
## I provide such N directions. They are given by the vectors 'u' in this
## simulation. He has also offered further 5,000 Euros to me if my proposed
## experiment is realized successfully. I am hopeful that that will happen
## some day. The details of these challanges by Richard Gill can be found
## here: http://www.sciphysicsforums.com/spfbb1/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52#p1898.
## While this is by no means the most perfect simulation of my model, it does
## meet all of the conditions set out by Richard Gill for his challenge.

## The theoretical description of the model can be found in this paper:
## http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.2355 (see also http://lccn.loc.gov/2013040705).

## Since after the explosion the angular momentum vectors 'u' moving along
## the z direction will be confined to the x-y plane, a 2D simulation is good
## enough for my proposed experiment.

set.seed(9875)

N <- 10^4  ## Sample size. Next, try 10^5, or even 10^6

angles <- seq(from = 0, to = 360, by = 10) * pi/180

K <- length(angles)
Ns <- numeric(K)  ## Container for number of states
corrs <- matrix(nrow = K, ncol = K, data = 0)  ## Container for correlations

r <- runif(N, 0, 2 * pi)
s <- runif(N, 0, pi)

x <- cos(r)
y <- sin(r)

u <- rbind(x, y)

## 'u' is a 2xN matrix. The N columns of 'u' represent the x and y
## coordinates of points on a unit circle in the equatorial plane.

p <- 1.21 * (-1 + (2/(sqrt(1 + (3 * s/pi)))))

for (i in 1:K) {
    alpha <- angles[i]
    a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
    for (j in 1:K) {
        beta <- angles[j]
        b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
        ca <- colSums(u * a)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
        cb <- colSums(u * b)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
        good <- abs(ca) > p & abs(cb) > p  ## Sets the topology to that of S^3
        M <- sum(good)
        corrs[i, j] <- sum(sign(ca[good]) * sign(-cb[good]))/M

        ## corrs[j] <- sum(sign(cb))/N
     
        Ns[i] <- M
    }
}
 
alpha <- 0 * pi/180
beta <- 45 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_0_45 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/M)
## [1] -0.6993

alpha <- 0 * pi/180
beta <- 135 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_0_135 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/M)
## [1] 0.703

alpha <- 90 * pi/180
beta <- 45 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_90_45 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/M)
## [1] -0.699

alpha <- 90 * pi/180
beta <- 135 * pi/180
a <- c(cos(alpha), sin(alpha))
b <- c(cos(beta), sin(beta))
ca <- colSums(u * a)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'a'
cb <- colSums(u * b)  ## Inner products of cols of 'u' with 'b'
(E_90_135 <- sum(sign(ca) * sign(-cb))/M)
## [1] -0.7276

## The Bell-CHSH inequality is violated:

abs(E_0_45 - E_0_135 + E_90_45 + E_90_135)
## [1] 2.829
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Rick Lockyer » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:56 pm

Fred, what I referenced is a programming bug, it has absolutely nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry. Getting near correct results is never a justification for having the math and/or programming and/or physics wrong, nor an excuse for adding ad hoc restrictions that from my perspective also have nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry. I think both you and Joy know me well enough to understand I hope he is successful and wish him the best of luck. But the effort to date here and on FQXi has been riddled with truthfully simplistic errors beyond the fundamental algebraic issues I have pointed out to Joy publicly and privately. The way the bet is structured, I agree with Richard Gill that it can't be won. If you add ad hoc restrictions that push in on one side to achieve desired results, the math dictates it will pop out on the other side.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:01 pm

Rick, how do you know it has nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry? I removed the "bug" in the code I posted above.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:22 pm

Rick Lockyer wrote:Fred, what I referenced is a programming bug, it has absolutely nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry. Getting near correct results is never a justification for having the math and/or programming and/or physics wrong, nor an excuse for adding ad hoc restrictions that from my perspective also have nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry. I think both you and Joy know me well enough to understand I hope he is successful and wish him the best of luck. But the effort to date here and on FQXi has been riddled with truthfully simplistic errors beyond the fundamental algebraic issues I have pointed out to Joy publicly and privately. The way the bet is structured, I agree with Richard Gill that it can't be won. If you add ad hoc restrictions that push in on one side to achieve desired results, the math dictates it will pop out on the other side.

I fundamentally disagree with you, Rick, on several points. As I have pointed out to you several times, providing you explicit references to highly respected papers in the physics literature, you are mistaken about my algebra, just as Gill is. You have been misled by misrepresentations of my physical model by the critics like Gill, who should have known better. The difficulties you and Gill had been having with my use of algebra has to do with your and his lack of appreciation of the actual physics behind the EPR-Bohm type experiments. So I disagree with you that there have been "simplistic errors" in my efforts. The so-called "errors" were manufactured and inserted in my work by some uninformed and unqualified critics. Sorry, but I do consider you uninformed when it comes to your knowledge of physics.

Now who has been adding ad hoc restrictions, Gill or me? He has been changing the rules of his challenge every time it has been defeated by me or others. If you make a challenge which says, "prove 2 = 3", then, sure, the challenge can't be won. But then it has also nothing to do with the real world. Physics is littered with high profile examples where intuitions of mathematicians have been proven totally wrong and misguided. I believe in the case of my work yours and Gill's mathematical intuitions are totally off the mark. EPR-Bohm experiments are about actual, laboratory physics, with physical systems, detectors, and so on, not about mathematics.

As for your programming point (you wrote: "Joy, you have redefined N inside the for loop from the original 10000, yet the size of the u array remains 10000 in your program. So dividing by 7070 inflates the average values."): Sure, but so what? Is that forbidden in the terms of Gill's challenge? His challenge is about my proposed experiment. He claimed that, in my experiment, the strong correlations are impossible to produce with a single N, a single set of u, the usual dot product, and the usual definition of the mean value. I have shown that he was wrong about that. His challenge does not say that I cannot exploit a "programming bug"---if what you point out is indeed a "programming bug"---to defeat his challenge. Again, it is all about modelling physics. And my simulation models my experiment successfully.
Last edited by Joy Christian on Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:30 pm

gill1109 wrote:Can anyone help us by locating the posting on the forum (different thread, but which???) with the draft of the letter to recruit the adjudicators?


****


Heinera wrote:Check if this link works:
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!top ... LcbmufZpss

It is the Usenet group thread. There is even an endorsement by Joy there (second post in the thread).

No that's not the one I meant.

Long long ago there was a bet about an experiment (one-on-one, Joy vs me, 5 000 Euro either way). Announced on usenet, FQXi and here.

We sent an email to some nice guys asking them if they would adjudicate.

They all said yes.

Later I got upset and childishly said I wasn't making any bets with Christian any more. I told the adjudicators that it was all cancelled.

Later I calmed down and I drew up a challenge about a data set .. the challenge being, that anyone who wants to, submits two data files which would, had they resulted from Christian's experiment, have won Christian's bet for him. There are no adjudicators already in place for that *challenge*. But sometime about the time that Christian first submitted a claim on the challenge, he and I composed the letter to invite adjudicators to join a jury to judge for us.

The challenge is open to all, it is one-sided (someone who submits a claim but doesn't win, doesn't have to pay me anything). Submissions before June 11 can claim 10 000 Euro, thereafter 5 000.

*****

Ben6993 wrote:Try the first posting on Fri 25th April which opened the thread: "The bet on Christian's experiment".

No that's not the one I meant either.
Last edited by gill1109 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:37 pm

gill1109 wrote:Can anyone help us by locating the posting on the forum (different thread, but which???) with the draft of the letter to recruit the adjudicators?


Try the FQXi blog. You posted the letter there as well.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:41 pm

Rick Lockyer wrote:Joy, you have redefined N inside the for loop from the original 10000, yet the size of the u array remains 10000 in your program. So dividing by 7070 inflates the average values.


Rick Lockyer wrote:Fred, what I referenced is a programming bug, it has absolutely nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry. Getting near correct results is never a justification for having the math and/or programming and/or physics wrong, nor an excuse for adding ad hoc restrictions that from my perspective also have nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry. I think both you and Joy know me well enough to understand I hope he is successful and wish him the best of luck. But the effort to date here and on FQXi has been riddled with truthfully simplistic errors beyond the fundamental algebraic issues I have pointed out to Joy publicly and privately. The way the bet is structured, I agree with Richard Gill that it can't be won. If you add ad hoc restrictions that push in on one side to achieve desired results, the math dictates it will pop out on the other side.


Thank you Rick. (My emboldening of your last sentence).

This was the point of the bet and then the challenge being structured this way. You could say that they were trick questions. They were trick questions designed in order to exhibit some truthfully simplistic errors ... which need to be (a) admitted, (b) fixed.

Fred could say they are not ad hoc restrictions ... OK, so let's just say "If you add restrictions that push in on one side to achieve desired results, the math dictates it will pop out on the other side.

You can't fight the math. Math = tautologies. As Joy earlier wisely sent, you circumvent Bell; you can't disprove him. You have to avoid being subject to his assumptions. Once his assumptions are on the table, the rest is a tautology.
Last edited by gill1109 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:49 pm

The "bug" was fixed in the code I posted above. And Rick was online after I posted my question to him. I guess he can't now explain why he thinks it has nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry. I was hoping Rick would make an attempt at it.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:50 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:The "bug" was fixed in the code I posted above. And Rick was online after I posted my question to him. I guess he can't now explain why he thinks it has nothing to do with 3-sphere geometry. I was hoping Rick would make an attempt at it.

Good morning, Fred! I think that what Rick was worried about, was not a bug which by now is fixed.
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Re: Another Response to Richard Gill's 10,000 Euros Challeng

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:56 pm

gill1109 wrote: If you add ad hoc restrictions that push in on one side to achieve desired results, the math dictates it will pop out on the other side.

Joy Christian wrote:If you make a challenge which says, "prove 2 = 3", then, sure, the challenge can't be won. But then it has also nothing to do with the real world.

Physics is littered with high profile examples where intuitions of mathematicians have been proven totally wrong and misguided. I believe in the case of my work ... Gill's mathematical intuitions are totally off the mark. EPR-Bohm experiments are about actual, laboratory physics, with physical systems, detectors, and so on, not about mathematics.


PS: I have revised my simulation slightly, fixing the bug Rick pointed out, in the manner of Fred: http://rpubs.com/jjc/19298.
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