Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Heinera » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:30 am

FrediFizzx wrote:Sure, if you can get the negative cosine curve then you have reproduced the predictions of QM and "seems" that you have violated CHSH. But the point is that no such thing has ever happened because you have switched to a different inequality with a bound of |4| instead of |2| for the "supposed" violation.

So you think that this expression (copied from minkwes post in another thread) has a bound of |4| in an urn model?



If so, can you please provide me with 16 frequencies that will give me values outside |2|?
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Joy Christian » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:44 am

Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Sure, if you can get the negative cosine curve then you have reproduced the predictions of QM and "seems" that you have violated CHSH. But the point is that no such thing has ever happened because you have switched to a different inequality with a bound of |4| instead of |2| for the "supposed" violation.

So you think that this expression (copied from minkwes post in another thread) has a bound of |4| in an urn model?



If so, can you please provide me with 16 frequencies that will give me values outside |2|?

Don't bother Fred. He has important things to do. Instead, look up the data set of any of the so-called loophole-free experiments. That will give you what you want.

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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Heinera » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:49 am

Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Sure, if you can get the negative cosine curve then you have reproduced the predictions of QM and "seems" that you have violated CHSH. But the point is that no such thing has ever happened because you have switched to a different inequality with a bound of |4| instead of |2| for the "supposed" violation.

So you think that this expression (copied from minkwes post in another thread) has a bound of |4| in an urn model?



If so, can you please provide me with 16 frequencies that will give me values outside |2|?

Don't bother Fred. He has important things to do. Instead, look up the data set of any of the so-called loophole-free experiments. That will give you what you want.

***

They will give me 16 frequencies for the urn model? Don't think so. If you think so, provide a link.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Joy Christian » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:54 am

Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Sure, if you can get the negative cosine curve then you have reproduced the predictions of QM and "seems" that you have violated CHSH. But the point is that no such thing has ever happened because you have switched to a different inequality with a bound of |4| instead of |2| for the "supposed" violation.

So you think that this expression (copied from minkwes post in another thread) has a bound of |4| in an urn model?



If so, can you please provide me with 16 frequencies that will give me values outside |2|?

Don't bother Fred. He has important things to do. Instead, look up the data set of any of the so-called loophole-free experiments. That will give you what you want.

***

They will give me 16 frequencies for the urn model? Don't think so. If you think so, provide a link.

My fees are $1,000 per hour. You can pay me through my PayPal account: jjc@alum.bu.edu . Once the money has arrived in my account, I will provide you the link.

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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby FrediFizzx » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:56 am

Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Sure, if you can get the negative cosine curve then you have reproduced the predictions of QM and "seems" that you have violated CHSH. But the point is that no such thing has ever happened because you have switched to a different inequality with a bound of |4| instead of |2| for the "supposed" violation.

So you think that this expression (copied from minkwes post in another thread) has a bound of |4| in an urn model?



If so, can you please provide me with 16 frequencies that will give me values outside |2|?

Don't bother Fred. He has important things to do. Instead, look up the data set of any of the so-called loophole-free experiments. That will give you what you want.

***

They will give me 16 frequencies for the urn model? Don't think so. If you think so, provide a link.

That the bound is |4| on that expression is trivial. 1 + 1 +1 -(-1) = 4. Not going to bother with anything else.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Heinera » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:10 am

FrediFizzx wrote:That the bound is |4| on that expression is trivial. 1 + 1 +1 -(-1) = 4. Not going to bother with anything else.

In the context of an urn model it's not trivial at all. Now give me those 16 frequencies that any idiot should be able to find if they exist.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Joy Christian » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:11 am

Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:That the bound is |4| on that expression is trivial. 1 + 1 +1 -(-1) = 4. Not going to bother with anything else.

In the context of an urn model it's not trivial at all. Now give me those 16 frequencies that any idiot should be able to find if they exist.

In that case you should be able to find them. :lol:

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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Heinera » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:21 am

Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:That the bound is |4| on that expression is trivial. 1 + 1 +1 -(-1) = 4. Not going to bother with anything else.

In the context of an urn model it's not trivial at all. Now give me those 16 frequencies that any idiot should be able to find if they exist.

In that case you should be able to find them. :lol:

***

I'm sorry to say that I'm not in that privileged group, that's why I'm asking you.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Joy Christian » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:25 am

Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:That the bound is |4| on that expression is trivial. 1 + 1 +1 -(-1) = 4. Not going to bother with anything else.

In the context of an urn model it's not trivial at all. Now give me those 16 frequencies that any idiot should be able to find if they exist.

In that case you should be able to find them. :lol:

***

I'm sorry to say that I'm not in that privileged group, that's why I'm asking you.

I beg to differ. :lol:

Joy Christian wrote:
My fees are $1,000 per hour. You can pay me through my PayPal account: jjc@alum.bu.edu . Once the money has arrived in my account, I will provide you the link.

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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Heinera » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:54 am

Joy Christian wrote:
My fees are $1,000 per hour. You can pay me through my PayPal account: jjc@alum.bu.edu . Once the money has arrived in my account, I will provide you the link.

***

I think I have an even better deal for you: Give me those 16 frequencies that any idiot should be able to find if they exist, then I shall make no claim on any part of your Nobel prize money. You can keep all the 1 mill USD.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Joy Christian » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:13 pm

Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
My fees are $1,000 per hour. You can pay me through my PayPal account: jjc@alum.bu.edu . Once the money has arrived in my account, I will provide you the link.

***

I think I have an even better deal for you: Give me those 16 frequencies that any idiot should be able to find if they exist, then I shall make no claim on any part of your Nobel prize money. You can keep all the 1 mill USD.

Try that con on someone else.

$1,000 now, or no deal. 8-)

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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby ajw » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:22 am

My issue is not that in simulations some get a negative cos, but that it is very difficult to exceed the |2| without using loopholes. So the derivation of CSHS might be wrong, but it does seem to hold here. I think this issue must be addresses before going public.
Anyway, I always thought of the CSHS as a trick to have one number to check how much the result set exceeds the saw-tooth curve and tends towards the negative cos. So personally I consider the negative cos to be more relevant to the QM-Bell discussion.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:12 am

ajw wrote:My issue is not that in simulations some get a negative cos, but that it is very difficult to exceed the |2| without using loopholes. So the derivation of CSHS might be wrong, but it does seem to hold here. I think this issue must be addresses before going public.
Anyway, I always thought of the CSHS as a trick to have one number to check how much the result set exceeds the saw-tooth curve and tends towards the negative cos. So personally I consider the negative cos to be more relevant to the QM-Bell discussion.

Hi Albert Jan,

It is not difficult to exceed the the bounds of |2| without using any loopholes, provided we implement the topology of 3-sphere correctly, as I have explained in this paper. You can see in this simulation of the 3-sphere topology that the bounds of |2| are exceeded. The simulation should not be confused with using any loopholes.

***
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby minkwe » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:39 am

Heinera wrote:...

All the talk about frequencies is a cop-out. We don't even have to talk about experiments, or QM or loopholes or any other concept for that matter. There are 4 expressions:

(1) ⟨A₁B₁⟩ + ⟨A’₁B₁⟩ + ⟨A₁B’₁⟩ – ⟨A’₁B’₁⟩ ≤ 2
(2) ⟨A₁B₁⟩ + ⟨A’₂B₂⟩ + ⟨A₃B’₃⟩ – ⟨A’₄B’₄⟩ ≤ 2√2
(3) ⟨A₁B₁⟩ + ⟨A’₁B₁⟩ + ⟨A₁B’₁⟩ – ⟨A’₁B’₁⟩ ≤ 2√2
(4) ⟨A₁B₁⟩ + ⟨A’₂B₂⟩ + ⟨A₃B’₃⟩ – ⟨A’₄B’₄⟩ ≤ 2

Let us focus on just the maths for a moment. There are no frequencies in that expression, just hard-cold data. I say the expressions (3) and (4) are wrong. I have provided a dataset which easily violates expression (4) https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6sZy ... EtRMlpsQzQ If you think expression (4) is correct, provide the mathematical proof of it. Expression (3) is wrong because it cannot be correct at the same time as expression (1). And definitive proof of the validity of expression (1) exists already.

I claim that expression (1) is correct and can never be violated, ever! Expression (4) is wrong and is easily violated. Bell's proponents claim that they have evidence of violation of expression (1), but then claim that expression (4) is correct. I'm calling their bluff, provide the dataset which violates expression (1). Use any means at your disposal to provide the data, you don't need to explain to anyone how you got it, If you believe an experiment violates (1), then you can just copy the data from the experiment and I'll shut up. Just provide the hard-cold data like I've done. The ball is in your court, it is clear what you have to do:

(a) Provide a dataset which violates expression (1)
(b) Provide a mathematical proof of expression (4)


I call this the Fred Diether Challenge, and it cuts through all the noise of disagreements about physical concepts, and experimental details. It is simply a challenge about datasets.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby ajw » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:34 am

Joy Christian wrote:
ajw wrote:My issue is not that in simulations some get a negative cos, but that it is very difficult to exceed the |2| without using loopholes. So the derivation of CSHS might be wrong, but it does seem to hold here. I think this issue must be addresses before going public.
Anyway, I always thought of the CSHS as a trick to have one number to check how much the result set exceeds the saw-tooth curve and tends towards the negative cos. So personally I consider the negative cos to be more relevant to the QM-Bell discussion.

Hi Albert Jan,

It is not difficult to exceed the the bounds of |2| without using any loopholes, provided we implement the topology of 3-sphere correctly, as I have explained in this paper. You can see in this simulation of the 3-sphere topology that the bounds of |2| are exceeded. The simulation should not be confused with using any loopholes.

***

Hi Joy,

I have already expressed my view on the current model in my flatlanders post on my blog (http://challengingbell.blogspot.nl/2015 ... tians.html).
For a computer model to proof the correlation of the EPR cos to be non-local I think the parts of the simulation that represent spatially separated processes should in principle be able to run standalone (separated by time and/or devices for non programmers, isolated processes for programmers). Because of the double loop in the current simulation this is difficult to do.
Both Chantals code as mine (de Raedt) are able to do this, and with these models it is very difficult to both use all counts and get the CSHS>2.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby FrediFizzx » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:15 pm

ajw wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
ajw wrote:My issue is not that in simulations some get a negative cos, but that it is very difficult to exceed the |2| without using loopholes. So the derivation of CSHS might be wrong, but it does seem to hold here. I think this issue must be addresses before going public.
Anyway, I always thought of the CSHS as a trick to have one number to check how much the result set exceeds the saw-tooth curve and tends towards the negative cos. So personally I consider the negative cos to be more relevant to the QM-Bell discussion.

Hi Albert Jan,

It is not difficult to exceed the the bounds of |2| without using any loopholes, provided we implement the topology of 3-sphere correctly, as I have explained in this paper. You can see in this simulation of the 3-sphere topology that the bounds of |2| are exceeded. The simulation should not be confused with using any loopholes.

***

Hi Joy,

I have already expressed my view on the current model in my flatlanders post on my blog (http://challengingbell.blogspot.nl/2015 ... tians.html).
For a computer model to proof the correlation of the EPR cos to be non-local I think the parts of the simulation that represent spatially separated processes should in principle be able to run standalone (separated by time and/or devices for non programmers, isolated processes for programmers). Because of the double loop in the current simulation this is difficult to do.
Both Chantals code as mine (de Raedt) are able to do this, and with these models it is very difficult to both use all counts and get the CSHS>2.


It is not only difficult but impossible due to the very nature of EPR-Bohm. And that is exactly where Bell messed up. It is impossible for B + B' to ever be an element of reality because of the nature of EPR-Bohm. A, B, A' and B' can only be elements of reality when they are measured and it is impossible in EPR-Bohm to measure B + B' simultaneously. It is like Bell's theory is a no-go no-go theory back on itself. One more time, it is mathematically impossible for anything to violate CHSH.
.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Joy Christian » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:26 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:
It is not only difficult but impossible due to the very nature of EPR-Bohm. And that is exactly where Bell messed up. It is impossible for B + B' to ever be an element of reality because of the nature of EPR-Bohm. A, B, A' and B' can only be elements of reality when they are measured and it is impossible in EPR-Bohm to measure B + B' simultaneously. It is like Bell's theory is a no-go no-go theory back on itself. One more time, it is mathematically impossible for anything to violate CHSH.
.

Fred, you are almost right, except that A, B, A' and B' need not be measured directly to be elements of reality. Because of the perfect anti-correlation, B(b) can be an element of reality by means of measuring A(b) and vice versa; and likewise for all possible directions n. But, as you say, it is impossible to violate CHSH by anything.

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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby FrediFizzx » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:34 pm

Joy Christian wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
It is not only difficult but impossible due to the very nature of EPR-Bohm. And that is exactly where Bell messed up. It is impossible for B + B' to ever be an element of reality because of the nature of EPR-Bohm. A, B, A' and B' can only be elements of reality when they are measured and it is impossible in EPR-Bohm to measure B + B' simultaneously. It is like Bell's theory is a no-go no-go theory back on itself. One more time, it is mathematically impossible for anything to violate CHSH.
.

Fred, you are almost right, except that A, B, A' and B' need not be measured directly to be elements of reality. Because of the perfect anti-correlation, B(b) can be an element of reality by means of measuring A(b) and vice versa; and likewise for all possible directions n. But, as you say, it is impossible to violate CHSH by anything.

***

Oh right, I forgot to put in the a = b and a = -b conditions. Those are the only times when Alice can make a prediction for Bob and likewise Bob a prediction for Alice. But one of them has to be measured first to be real. For all other a's and b's, no predictions can be made. Of course one can also make the prediction that A will be anti-correlated with B when a = b.
.
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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby Joy Christian » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:53 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
It is not only difficult but impossible due to the very nature of EPR-Bohm. And that is exactly where Bell messed up. It is impossible for B + B' to ever be an element of reality because of the nature of EPR-Bohm. A, B, A' and B' can only be elements of reality when they are measured and it is impossible in EPR-Bohm to measure B + B' simultaneously. It is like Bell's theory is a no-go no-go theory back on itself. One more time, it is mathematically impossible for anything to violate CHSH.
.

Fred, you are almost right, except that A, B, A' and B' need not be measured directly to be elements of reality. Because of the perfect anti-correlation, B(b) can be an element of reality by means of measuring A(b) and vice versa; and likewise for all possible directions n. But, as you say, it is impossible to violate CHSH by anything.

***

Oh right, I forgot to put in the a = b and a = -b conditions. Those are the only times when Alice can make a prediction for Bob and likewise Bob a prediction for Alice. But one of them has to be measured first to be real. For all other a's and b's, no predictions can be made. Of course one can also make the prediction that A will be anti-correlated with B when a = b.
.

Richard Gill's attempt to wiggle out of the fact that B + B' is not an element of reality is the following:

Richard Gill wrote:
…if you can argue that B(b) and B(b’) are elements of reality, then the pair (B(b), B(b’)) is also an element of reality, and any function thereof, such as the sum, as well.

And my response to his attempt is the following:

Joy Christian wrote:
According to the above reasoning, since “square-root of B(b)” is a function of B(b), “square-root of B(b)” is an element of reality. But since B(b) = +1 or -1, both “square-root of +1” and “square-root of -1” are elements of reality, where “square-root of -1” = the imaginary i.

The above is the least of the problem with Gill’s “criterion” of reality. According to Gill’s criterion, any old function of A, A’, B, B’, etc. is an element of reality, provided A, A’, B, B’, etc. are elements of reality. In addition to the “imaginary problem” exposed above, to see how absurd Gill’s criterion is, recall that A(a) and B(b) are continuous functions of the 3D vectors like a and b. Thus there are in fact infinitely many A(a)’s and B(b)’s to consider, all which can be added up or subtracted out in infinitely many different ways, the results of which can again be added up and subtracted out in infinitely many different ways. And of course adding and subtracting are not the only mathematical operations we can perform on A’s and B’s. We can indeed construct infinitely many other functions out of them. For example, like { A + A’ + A” + sqrt(B + B’) } / { bunch of other A’s and B’s added up or subtracted out}, and so on. In other words, according to Gill’s criterion of reality there is absolutely no end to the number of different elements of reality we can construct out of the genuine EPR elements of reality like A(a) and B(b), without exhausting any conceivable order of Cantor’s transfinite numbers of infinities. Well, you got the picture. According to Gill’s criterion of reality, absolutely anything at all can be an element of reality, from our universe to infinitely many other universes.

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Re: Bell Imposed -0 and +0 Bounds on the CHSH Correlator

Postby thray » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:45 pm

Yep. In fact, I don't see how one can have a theory without a measure space, and reach any other conclusion.

You're just doing combinatorics, otherwise. Primitive combinatorics.
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