Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

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Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby FrediFizzx » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:03 pm

Matter cannot exist without gravitational torsion breaking space-time symmetry at the Planck scale. It is the source of hbar via Planck length. IOW, matter is simply a defect of space-time. Of course there must be other symmetries involved to give the rich diversity of matter that we observe. But the first step has to be the production of hbar and thus spinors.

"Geometric Algebra and Applications in Physics", chap. 10 "Quantum Gravity in Real Space-Time (Commutators and Anticommutators)"
by Sabbata and Datta.

Now to see if this conjecture can be rigorously proven. I think Sabbata and Datta have it half done. Gravitational torsion is the dual to gravitational curvature analogously to like electricity and magnetism are dual to each other, etc.
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby thray123 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:17 am

Fred,

If torsion is responsible for matter, it is spacetime torsion. We know this because gravity has a local rest state, which could not be realized without the limit on matter-spacetime interaction of special relativity.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... multaneity

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... SImplicity

All best,
Tom
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:04 am

***
Fred, I like your line of argument. I have downloaded the book. It looks quite accessible. I will have a closer look when I get a chance.

***
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:07 am

thray123 wrote:Fred,

If torsion is responsible for matter, it is spacetime torsion. We know this because gravity has a local rest state, which could not be realized without the limit on matter-spacetime interaction of special relativity.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... multaneity

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... SImplicity

All best,
Tom

Hi Tom,

It's a funny thing as gravitational torsion seems to exist only inside of matter as far as we can tell from current research. IOW, it doesn't propagate past the confines of matter. So if it is space-time torsion, it is only the space-time within matter.
.
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:18 am

Joy Christian wrote:***
Fred, I like your line of argument. I have downloaded the book. It looks quite accessible. I will have a closer look when I get a chance.

***

Hi Joy,

Thanks. It is all in Chapter 10. It's not very complicated. After reading Jay's SU(8) paper I was racking my brain to try to figure out how gravitational torsion might be breaking SU(8) symmetry at the Planck scale then it hit me that it definitely has to be breaking space-time symmetry. It is the thing where the loop doesn't close. The difference is fundamentally Planck length. Now, there may also be symmetry breaking to whatever the GUT symmetry might be in addition.
.
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby thray123 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:47 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
thray123 wrote:Fred,

If torsion is responsible for matter, it is spacetime torsion. We know this because gravity has a local rest state, which could not be realized without the limit on matter-spacetime interaction of special relativity.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... multaneity

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... SImplicity

All best,
Tom

Hi Tom,

It's a funny thing as gravitational torsion seems to exist only inside of matter as far as we can tell from current research. IOW, it doesn't propagate past the confines of matter. So if it is space-time torsion, it is only the space-time within matter.
.


You're assuming that matter has confines. What constrains it?

Best,
Tom
thray123
 

Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:56 pm

thray123 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Hi Tom,

It's a funny thing as gravitational torsion seems to exist only inside of matter as far as we can tell from current research. IOW, it doesn't propagate past the confines of matter. So if it is space-time torsion, it is only the space-time within matter.
.


You're assuming that matter has confines. What constrains it?

Best,
Tom

That is easy and no assumption. Gravitational torsion.
.
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby thray » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:25 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
thray123 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Hi Tom,

It's a funny thing as gravitational torsion seems to exist only inside of matter as far as we can tell from current research. IOW, it doesn't propagate past the confines of matter. So if it is space-time torsion, it is only the space-time within matter.
.


You're assuming that matter has confines. What constrains it?

Best,
Tom

That is easy and no assumption. Gravitational torsion.
.


Of course it comes with assumptions. That matter can't exist without it. That Planck's constant is real. That gravity is in fact, nonlocal -- for if Planck's constant, a quantum derived measure dependent on matter's existence -- is real, you're engaged in circular reasoning. If gravity is a local phenomenon, however, Planck's constant has to assume a zero value. This is why I am so interested in Jay's program, a micro scale Lorentz transformation. We know that if PC is zero, the world is classical, and if classical, manifestly local.
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:43 am

thray wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
thray123 wrote:You're assuming that matter has confines. What constrains it?

Best,
Tom

That is easy and no assumption. Gravitational torsion.
.


Of course it comes with assumptions. That matter can't exist without it. That Planck's constant is real. That gravity is in fact, nonlocal -- for if Planck's constant, a quantum derived measure dependent on matter's existence -- is real, you're engaged in circular reasoning. If gravity is a local phenomenon, however, Planck's constant has to assume a zero value. This is why I am so interested in Jay's program, a micro scale Lorentz transformation. We know that if PC is zero, the world is classical, and if classical, manifestly local.

Well, there is a chicken or the egg thing here sort of. But there is no doubt now-a-days that Planck's constant is real. Non-locality only exists very near to Planck length if at all since we found that elementary matter particles have a "size" near Planck length with neutrinos being the odd man out. So gravity is pretty local up to that scale as far as normal matter particles are concerned.
.
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby thray » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:29 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:
thray wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
thray123 wrote:You're assuming that matter has confines. What constrains it?

Best,
Tom

That is easy and no assumption. Gravitational torsion.
.


Of course it comes with assumptions. That matter can't exist without it. That Planck's constant is real. That gravity is in fact, nonlocal -- for if Planck's constant, a quantum derived measure dependent on matter's existence -- is real, you're engaged in circular reasoning. If gravity is a local phenomenon, however, Planck's constant has to assume a zero value. This is why I am so interested in Jay's program, a micro scale Lorentz transformation. We know that if PC is zero, the world is classical, and if classical, manifestly local.

Well, there is a chicken or the egg thing here sort of. But there is no doubt now-a-days that Planck's constant is real. Non-locality only exists very near to Planck length if at all since we found that elementary matter particles have a "size" near Planck length with neutrinos being the odd man out. So gravity is pretty local up to that scale as far as normal matter particles are concerned.
.


If size matters. Planck's constant is an empirical measurement. Dirac's constant (h-bar divided by 2pi) is the theoretical equivalent -- the limit of quantization. If spacetime is continuous, however, it is quantized at no point. Gravity, which we know affects spacetime -- does not rule out that spacetime affects gravity. If one admits, via quantization, a limit to the spacetime effect on gravity -- spacetime loses its continuum property, and we are compelled to speak in terms of boundary conditions on 'local spacetime' and 'nonlocal spacetime'. Then the door is open to nonlocal causality. In a universe in which past and future entropy are identical, there must be a 2-way exchange of information, 1-dimensional and without boundary. A 1-dimension universe allows big bang cosmology (see Bekenstein-Mayo) from a physical singularity the freedom to oscillate between - 1 and + !. The 1-dimension signature, 0 + 1, is exactly what first led me to believe in Joy's framework. Marc Holman, one of the honest critics, noted that it required an extra degree of freedom not seen in our ordinary 3D space of measurement, and dismissed it for that reason. I agreed with the analysis, not with the dismissal.

If size matters, comparative size matters. Everywhere. So we get all these Planck limits -- except the limit at the source. That's where size doesn't matter, because there aren't any particles, no confinement; the source is zero. That is the extra degree of freedom. As Einstein once said (quoting from my paper) "I think of a quantum as a singularity surrounded by a large vector field. A large number of quanta compose a vector field that differs little from what we currently accept as radiation."
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Re: Matter can't exist without gravitational torsion

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:09 pm

It's possible space-time is continuous outside of matter but is broken inside of matter. There is definitely something different between matter and empty spacetime. :-) If Joy's framework and our particle paper are correct, then non-locality is ruled out up to near Planck length. It may be ruled out up to Planck length by something else but at this point we just don't know. There is no door open to nonlocal causality at lengths greater than this.
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