Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby gill1109 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:36 am

Joy Christian wrote:Again, your post is off-topic. Moreover, I am entirely unexcited by the abstract. My work has nothing to do with wavefunction and all the unpalatable baggage it brings in.

Don't disrupt the flow of this thread. If you have something to contribute about the fibration of S^3, then let us know. Otherwise, keep the wavefunctions, etc., out of it.

OK, we return to your 3-sphere model. I would like to recommend everyone to fire up GAviewer http://www.geometricalgebra.net/gaviewer_download.html in order to verify for themselves whether or not the even sub-algebra of Cl(4, 0) is isomorphic to Cl(0, 3) and hence not a normed division algebra, in contradiction to the claims in all of Christian's latest three papers, two published and one submitted.

The isomorphism can be verified by first drawing a correspondence between (e1 e2), (e2 e3), and (e3 e1) in the even sub-algebra of Cl(4, 0) with e1, e2, e3 in Cl(0, 3). They anti-commute and square to minus one. The next step in establishing the isomorphism could be to verify that (e1 e2 e3 e4) in the even sub-algebra of Cl(4, 0) could correspond with (e1 e2 e3) in Cl(0, 3). To round things off one needs to find which remaining basis elements of Cl(0, 3) correspond to the remaining even basis elements of Cl(4, 0). A nice little exercise for the computer-savvy reader!

It seems to me that this finding puts the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm into serious jeopardy. Or is there a serious bug in GAViewer?
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:04 am

***
For heaven's sake, this has nothing to do with the 3-sphere model. A 3-sphere is simply a set of unit quaternions. No Clifford algebra needs to be mentioned. You are very confused about many things. But I am not going to enlighten you anymore. Publish your viXra paper in a peer-reviewed journal, and then I may perhaps respond to it.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby gill1109 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:03 am

Joy Christian wrote:For heaven's sake, this has nothing to do with the 3-sphere model. A 3-sphere is simply a set of unit quaternions. No Clifford algebra needs to be mentioned.

Yet you repeatedly mention Clifford algebra throughout your paper. The paper expounds and depends on both Clifford algebra and Geometric Algebra. It also contradicts well-known results from those fields. But OK, well-known results may be wrong.

The author prefers there to be no mention of Clifford algebra when discussing his 3-sphere model? His algebra Cl(0,3) is just the direct sum of two copies of the set of quaternions, so indeed, the discourse need only involve pairs of quaternions. I can translate my analysis into the language of quaternions. There are many computer algebra packages which enable us to operate in that context. For instance, GAViewer is very suitable indeed. Mathematica is another option. Sage, and R, are other options. Python too.
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:14 am

***

We are talking about the current thread. It is about the fibration of 3-sphere, not about Clifford algebra. But you are determined to hijack and/or disrupt this thread.

I give up. You can carry on with your claims. They are worthless in my opinion.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby gill1109 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:15 am

Joy Christian wrote:We are talking about the current thread. It is about the fibration of 3-sphere, not about Clifford algebra. But you are determined to hijack and/or disrupt this thread.

You may very well be right that the strong correlations we observe in Nature are connected to the fact that we live in a quaternionic 3-sphere. I'd certainly like to hear more people's ideas about this.
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:28 pm

***
I am tempted to write a short paper on the main theme of this thread.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby localyokel » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:20 pm

gill1109 wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:We are talking about the current thread. It is about the fibration of 3-sphere, not about Clifford algebra. But you are determined to hijack and/or disrupt this thread.

You may very well be right that the strong correlations we observe in Nature are connected to the fact that we live in a quaternionic 3-sphere. I'd certainly like to hear more people's ideas about this.


I don't believe we live in a quaternionic 3-sphere. More concretely: I don't think Joy's macroscopic exploding balls experiment would show quantum correlations. But if he invokes the age old quantum/classical divide dodge so that his theory does not have to apply to the macroscopic world, and says the metaphysics behind his handedness switch (sign trick) is comparable to the metaphysics behind entanglement/collapse, then I think he has a theory that would not look so wacky compared to say multiworlds or QBism. (I actually wonder if QBism is a practical joke devised by a group of academics to see how foolish they can get their colleagues to look when they advocate for it.)
localyokel
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:49 pm

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Joy Christian » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:11 pm

localyokel wrote:
I don't believe we live in a quaternionic 3-sphere. More concretely: I don't think Joy's macroscopic exploding balls experiment would show quantum correlations.

Neither of these two statements is a scientific argument. They are statements of belief. There is no place for beliefs in science. Elsewhere you mentioned that you are a hobbyist. Science is not a hobby. It requires hard work and many sacrifices. To appreciate what scientific arguments look like, carefully study the following three papers:

1) https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 014-2412-2

2) https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... sos.180526

3) https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8836453

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby localyokel » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:35 am

Joy Christian wrote:
localyokel wrote:
I don't believe we live in a quaternionic 3-sphere. More concretely: I don't think Joy's macroscopic exploding balls experiment would show quantum correlations.

Neither of these two statements is a scientific argument. They are statements of belief. There is no place for beliefs in science. Elsewhere you mentioned that you are a hobbyist. Science is not a hobby. It requires hard work and many sacrifices. To appreciate what scientific arguments look like, carefully study the following three papers:

1) https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 014-2412-2

2) https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... sos.180526

3) https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8836453

***


If you are right, here's an easy way to win the Nobel Prize. Buy 3 pool balls, several gopro cameras, some video editing software, and some paint. Paint the balls so one can get a good idea of how they are spinning. Rent a pool table and set up your cameras around and over the table to get lots of good angles. Record the cue ball smacking into the other two balls (those two starting out touching each time) and when they hit the edges of the table. Synch up the footage of the cameras in the video editing software and put it on youtube. Crowd source determining the vectors like those described in your exploding ball experiment proposal when the balls hit the edges of the table. Crunch those vectors through your equations and show the quantum correlations. Maybe if/when the conference Richard Gill is trying to set up happens, this could be a fun social activity in the evenings.
localyokel
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:49 pm

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Joy Christian » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:53 am

localyokel wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
localyokel wrote:
I don't believe we live in a quaternionic 3-sphere. More concretely: I don't think Joy's macroscopic exploding balls experiment would show quantum correlations.

Neither of these two statements is a scientific argument. They are statements of belief. There is no place for beliefs in science. Elsewhere you mentioned that you are a hobbyist. Science is not a hobby. It requires hard work and many sacrifices. To appreciate what scientific arguments look like, carefully study the following three papers:

1) https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 014-2412-2

2) https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... sos.180526

3) https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8836453

***


If you are right, here's an easy way to win the Nobel Prize. Buy 3 pool balls, several gopro cameras, some video editing software, and some paint. Paint the balls so one can get a good idea of how they are spinning. Rent a pool table and set up your cameras around and over the table to get lots of good angles. Record the cue ball smacking into the other two balls (those two starting out touching each time) and when they hit the edges of the table. Synch up the footage of the cameras in the video editing software and put it on youtube. Crowd source determining the vectors like those described in your exploding ball experiment proposal when the balls hit the edges of the table. Crunch those vectors through your equations and show the quantum correlations. Maybe if/when the conference Richard Gill is trying to set up happens, this could be a fun social activity in the evenings.

What you are suggesting cannot produce strong correlations. The balls must be in free flight, just as in the standard EPR-Bohm type experiments with photons or fermions.

Did you read the papers I have linked? No. You haven't understood the physical reasons why my proposed experiment will necessarily produce strong correlations.

Here is a good summary --- with discussion and useful links --- of the proposed experiment: http://libertesphilosophica.info/blog/e ... taphysics/.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Heinera » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:13 am

Joy Christian wrote:What you are suggesting cannot produce strong correlations. The balls must be in free flight, just as in the standard EPR-Bohm type experiments with photons or fermions.


There is of course no "free flight" in these experiments. The photons are piped through fiber optic cables, following a highly restricted path.

.
Heinera
 
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Joy Christian » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:43 am

Heinera wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:What you are suggesting cannot produce strong correlations. The balls must be in free flight, just as in the standard EPR-Bohm type experiments with photons or fermions.


There is of course no "free flight" in these experiments. The photons are piped through fiber optic cables, following a highly restricted path.


In that case, they are not doing the experiments correctly. They are not realizing the version of the EPR type experiment originally proposed by Bohm in his book on QM.

Image

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Heinera » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:21 am

Well, they must be doing something right since they see violation of the Bell inequalities.
Heinera
 
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Joy Christian » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:33 am

Heinera wrote:
Well, they must be doing something right since they see violation of the Bell inequalities.

Nobody has ever seen a violation of a Bell inequality. Nothing can even violate a mathematical inequality. No experiment has ever violated a Bell inequality.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby localyokel » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:04 am

Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
Well, they must be doing something right since they see violation of the Bell inequalities.

Nobody has ever seen a violation of a Bell inequality. Nothing can even violate a mathematical inequality. No experiment has ever violated a Bell inequality.

***


Would you have a word with my bank about my overdraft fee?
localyokel
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:49 pm

Re: Dr Bertlmann's socks and the 3-sphere model of EPR-Bohm

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:35 am

localyokel wrote:
Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
Well, they must be doing something right since they see violation of the Bell inequalities.

Nobody has ever seen a violation of a Bell inequality. Nothing can even violate a mathematical inequality. No experiment has ever violated a Bell inequality.

***

Would you have a word with my bank about my overdraft fee?

No.

But that is an excellent analogy of what actually happens in the experiments. The bank balance of the CHSH correlator is claimed by Bell and his followers to be 2. But, by physical necessity, the experiments can only be done with an overdraft so that the actual bank balance of the CHSH correlator is, in fact, 4. Therefore, all the talk of the bank balance of 2 "violated" in the experiments is pure nonsense. 2 wasn't the true bank balance to begin with. The true bank balance was 4, and that was never violated.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Previous

Return to Sci.Physics.Foundations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

CodeCogs - An Open Source Scientific Library