Gull and Gill's theory

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:27 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:What a bunch of waffling. You don't even know the equation numbers of Jay's A and B measurement functions.
.
(snipped nonsense)
Please tell me which formula numbers you are talking about. (snipped more nonsense)

I expected you wouldn't have a clue. Here is a clue for you. Jay's product calculation simplified a bit,

Image

I take it that the cross product magnitude is unphysical since a and b are physically separated. It is just a mathematical artifact and can be set to zero.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby gill1109 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:28 am

local wrote:
gill1109 wrote: Joy Christian’s papers contain the conventional predictions of the singlet correlations. I refer you to him. And to Jay Yablon’s recent work.

You mentioned standard textbooks. Are you withdrawing that now? Neither Joy nor Jay address separated measurement. You're twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to avoid the reality here.

And you avoid answering the simple question: Do you think Graft's mathematical derivation of the quantum prediction for separated systems is correct? If not, where is the error?

I'm really enjoying this thread, even your ad hominems and narcissistic rage, because it exposes you as an empty suit.

I disagree. I think that Joy and Jay do address separated measurement. But you can ask them...

I think Graft has no explanation of the 2015 experimental data, so I have no interest in it.

I don’t think it is proper in civilized scientific discussion to write things like “I'm really enjoying this thread, even your ad hominems and narcissistic rage, because it exposes you as an empty suit.” Oh well. I hope it made you feel good. :lol: 8-)
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby gill1109 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:34 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:What a bunch of waffling. You don't even know the equation numbers of Jay's A and B measurement functions.
.
(snipped nonsense)
Please tell me which formula numbers you are talking about. (snipped more nonsense)

I expected you wouldn't have a clue. Here is a clue for you. Jay's product calculation simplified a bit,

Image

I take it that the cross product magnitude is unphysical since a and b are physically separated. It is just a mathematical artifact and can be set to zero.
.

Well great, so you are on your way to the 64 000 Euro and undying fame? You’ll even pick up a Nobel prize by exhibiting quantum correlations between two separated classical physical objects (two PCs).

I don’t understand why Jay didn’t already cash in. He hasn’t even posted his paper on viXra. Yet he could submit it to the bests physics journals out there! Nature, for instance. If you’re right, it revolutionises physics. All those quantum computing investors will badly want to know.
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby local » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:37 am

gill1109 wrote: I disagree. I think that Joy and Jay do address separated measurement. But you can ask them...

Neither here nor there. You cited standard textbooks and I asked you for specific cites. You failed and continue to equivocate.

I think Graft has no explanation of the 2015 experimental data, so I have no interest in it.

It's mathematics (your strong suit we are to believe), not an analysis of an experiment. We are all tired of playing whack-a-mole with your stupid experiments.

I don’t think it is proper in civilized scientific discussion to write things like “I'm really enjoying this thread, even your ad hominems and narcissistic rage, because it exposes you as an empty suit.”

But your ad hominems are perfectly fine. Disgusting hypocrisy.
Last edited by local on Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
local
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:45 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:What a bunch of waffling. You don't even know the equation numbers of Jay's A and B measurement functions.
.
(snipped nonsense)
Please tell me which formula numbers you are talking about. (snipped more nonsense)

I expected you wouldn't have a clue. Here is a clue for you. Jay's product calculation simplified a bit,

Image

I take it that the cross product magnitude is unphysical since a and b are physically separated. It is just a mathematical artifact and can be set to zero.
.

Well great, so you are on your way to the 64 000 Euro and undying fame? You’ll even pick up a Nobel prize by exhibiting quantum correlations between two separated classical physical objects (two PCs).

I don’t understand why Jay didn’t already cash in. He hasn’t even posted his paper on viXra. Yet he could submit it to the bests physics journals out there! Nature, for instance. If you’re right, it revolutionises physics. All those quantum computing investors will badly want to know.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: You really are completely clueless. It's a quantum mechanics calculation. Got nothing to do with Gill's theory.
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby gill1109 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:06 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Well great, so you are on your way to the 64 000 Euro and undying fame? You’ll even pick up a Nobel prize by exhibiting quantum correlations between two separated classical physical objects (two PCs).

I don’t understand why Jay didn’t already cash in. He hasn’t even posted his paper on viXra. Yet he could submit it to the bests physics journals out there! Nature, for instance. If you’re right, it revolutionises physics. All those quantum computing investors will badly want to know.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: You really are completely clueless. It's a quantum mechanics calculation. Got nothing to do with Gill's theory.
.

Fred, *you* said that Jay had measurement functions, I thought you were talking about a LHV theory with functions A and B. Silly me, sorry!

OK, so you meant something different. But anyway, "local" asked here for the QM calculation. So he (or is it "she"? or do I have to say "they" nowadays?) can look at Jay's derivation and tell us whether it works in R^3 or wherever. I am no expert on QM.

But you and they should start up a new thread on that new topic.

So can we now get back to Gill and Gull's theories about impossibility of a certain classical distributed computing task? Let's have a new topic on whether or not the -a.b formula follows from conventional quantum theory. But I'll pass on that.
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby local » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:12 am

gill1109 wrote: Silly me, sorry!

Finally acknowledgement of the obvious.

So he can look at Jay's derivation and tell us whether it works in R^3 or wherever. I am no expert on QM.

You mock Jay for not publishing but refer me to his paper. Silly, indeed.

Just cite a standard textbook derivation as you posted about. Or are you withdrawing all that? Just blustering and not expecting to get called out?

But I'll pass on that.

Sounds like surrender. Of course you'll pass, because you are a dilettante in quantum theory and do not understand projection and its implications for EPRB. Totally out of your depth. Why don't you recruit some of your quantum mysterian buddies to come here and set us straight? Larsson would be perfect.
Last edited by local on Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:55 am, edited 9 times in total.
local
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:16 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:Well great, so you are on your way to the 64 000 Euro and undying fame? You’ll even pick up a Nobel prize by exhibiting quantum correlations between two separated classical physical objects (two PCs).

I don’t understand why Jay didn’t already cash in. He hasn’t even posted his paper on viXra. Yet he could submit it to the bests physics journals out there! Nature, for instance. If you’re right, it revolutionises physics. All those quantum computing investors will badly want to know.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: You really are completely clueless. It's a quantum mechanics calculation. Got nothing to do with Gill's theory.
.

Fred, *you* said that Jay had measurement functions, I thought you were talking about a LHV theory with functions A and B. Silly me, sorry!

OK, so you meant something different. But anyway, "local" asked here for the QM calculation. So he (or is it "she"? or do I have to say "they" nowadays?) can look at Jay's derivation and tell us whether it works in R^3 or wherever. I am no expert on QM.

But you and they should start up a new thread on that new topic.

So can we now get back to Gill and Gull's theories about impossibility of a certain classical distributed computing task? Let's have a new topic on whether or not the -a.b formula follows from conventional quantum theory. But I'll pass on that.

Of course Jay has local measurement functions for A and B. How else would you demonstrate that QM is local for the EPR-Bohm scenario? Simply backtrack from the product calculation.

Yeah, we are way off topic here. But anyways you can now forget about entanglement forever. :mrgreen:
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby local » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:47 am

FrediFizzx wrote:you can now forget about entanglement forever

I'll second that!
local
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby Austin Fearnley » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:41 pm

local wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:you can now forget about entanglement forever

I'll second that!

I have a very simple numerical 'proof' that Bell correl results do not need to be carried out on entangled pairs. I made a simple toy table of 22 pairs of A and B results and found a correl of -0.818. I then randomised B results when A = 1 and subsequently randomised B results when A = 0. The new table with such randomised results also had the same correl of -0.818.

So there is no need for twin pairs. We can use fraternal pairs as in (a sort of) an intraclass correlation. This means we could, in a real experiment, try correlating pairs of particles which are not located within the same time interval window. This should work in a real experiment for my retro method as my method works on polarisation rather than entanglement.
ORIGINAL
A B
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 0


RANDOMISED
A B
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 1
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
1 0
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 0
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
0 1
Austin Fearnley
 

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:59 pm

What was the angle between a and b? Or doesn't it matter?
.
FrediFizzx
Independent Physics Researcher
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: N. California, USA

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby Austin Fearnley » Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:46 pm

theta = 35.1 deg (i.e. the angle whose -cos equals -0.818)
I hadn't bothered to work out the angle before as the 'proof' will work with any angle.

One can look at the table in two ways.
1. Assume that the original data are from genuine matched pairs of particles in a Bell experiment, relying on entanglement only.

My randomisation shows that the correl results would not change if we no longer bothered to match up the pairs. One needs to randomise as I previously wrote. That is we randomise B values within A values. Or randomise A values within B values. It may possibly be argued that this is a spurious effect as all the original data are from exactly matched pairs, and we do not know what would have been measured in the real experiment if the pairs had not been matched.

Second way. 2. Assume that the original data are from unmatched pairs in a Bell experiment, based on my method relying on polarisation (which does not need exact matches.)

The randomisation here also does not change the correlation and shows that you can get the correlation from any such ordering of the data. That is what you would expect from a method not relying on exactly matched pairs.

This second way has not been tested by a real experiment so there is no proof that we will get -a.b. It is doubtful that any real experiment historically took any measurements from unmatched pairs?
Austin Fearnley
 

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby gill1109 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:41 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:Of course Jay has local measurement functions for A and B. How else would you demonstrate that QM is local for the EPR-Bohm scenario? Simply backtrack from the product calculation.
.

Dear Fred,

Jay does a routine QM calculation of the singlet correlations. He has a meta-physical discussion in which he argues that Hilbert space operators are *real* because their non-commuting character is reflected in real correlations which could not otherwise exist. They are *local* because they are associated with two different measurements going on at two different places.

He does not have local measurement functions. He does not have a particle-by-particle model which produces individual pairs of outcomes in two processes in two separated environments. He does not have an event-based local realist simulation model.

You should read what he wrote, instead of projecting your own wishful thinking about what you dreamt he wrote.

His point of view is common among old school physicists. I saw it a lot among people of the generation of Gerard ‘t Hooft and the generation before that. The Copenhagen school was dominant; Bohr had won the debate with Einstein. If you wanted a career in a physics department you stuck to the official line and stayed clear of foundational debate.
Last edited by gill1109 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby gill1109 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:03 pm

There was a question about the QM derivation of the singlet correlations. According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (article on Bell’s theorem) you can find it in the following two sources:

Bohm, D., 1951, Quantum Theory, Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall.

Bohm, D., and Aharonov, Y., 1957, “Discussion of experimental proof for the paradox of Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen,” Physical Review, 108: 1070–1076.

Maybe someone else here has a favourite standard text book which includes it? Because of Corona I can’t get to a university library right now.
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby gill1109 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:17 am

Gill’s theorem (no-go to classical, distributed, simulation of a Bell-CHSH type experiment with externally generated random and unpredictable settings) was published in arXiv papers in 2001 and 2003. Those papers were also published in conference proceedings, both in 2003. My results and methods have been much improved, most recently by Stephanie Wehner and David Elkouss in Delft. They are used, and a full proof given, in the Nature paper of the 2015 Bell experiment, Hensen er al (supplementary material). Here is what I write in Section 3.2 newly written my newest paper (latest version: 9 November)https://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~gill/gull.pdf, where you can find full references.

Consider such an experiment and let us say that the nth trial results in a success, if and only if the two outcomes are equal and the settings are not both the setting with label “2”, or the two outcomes are opposite and the settings are both the setting with label “2”. (Recall that measurement outcomes take the values ±1; the settings will be labelled “1” and “2”, and these labels correspond to certain choices of measurement directions, in each of the two wings of the experiment). The quantum engineering is set up so as to ensure a large positive correlation between the outcomes for setting pairs 11, 12 and 21, but a large negative correlation for setting pair 22. Let us denote the total number of successes in a fixed number, N, of trials, by SN .

Then Hensen et al. (2015a, b), and see also Bierhorst (2015) and Elkouss and Wehner (2016) for further generalisations, show that, for all x,

P(S_N ≥ x) ≤ P(Bin(N,3/4) ≥ x),

where Bin(N, p) denotes a binomally distributed random variable with parameters N, the number of trials, and success probability, per independent trial, p.

Above we wrote “under the assumption of local realism”. Those are physics concepts. The important point here is that a network of two classical PC’s both performing a completely deterministic computation, and allowed to communicate over a classical wired connection between every trial and the next, does satisfy those assumptions. The theorem applies to a classical distributed computer simulation of the usual quantum optics lab experiment. Time trends and time jumps in the simulated physics, and correlations (dependency) due to use of memory of past settings (even of the past settings in the other wing in the experiment) do not destroy the theorem. It is driven solely by the random choice anew, trial after trial, of one of the four pairs of settings, and such that each computer is only fed its own setting, not that given to the other computer.

Take for instance N = 10000. Take a critical level of x = 0.8N. Local realism says that S_N is stochastically smaller (in the right tail) than the Bin(N, 0.75) distribution. According to quantum mechanics, and using the optimal pairs of settings and the optimal quantum state, S_N has approximately the Bin(N,0.85) distribution. Under those two distributions, the probabilities of outcomes respectively larger and smaller than 0.80N are about 10^−30 and 10^−40 respectively. These probabilities give an excellent basis for making bets.
gill1109
Mathematical Statistician
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:39 pm
Location: Leiden

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby Austin Fearnley » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:58 am

Austin Fearnley wrote:theta = 35.1 deg (i.e. the angle whose -cos equals -0.818)
I hadn't bothered to work out the angle before as the 'proof' will work with any angle.

One can look at the table in two ways.
1. Assume that the original data are from genuine matched pairs of particles in a Bell experiment, relying on entanglement only.

My randomisation shows that the correl results would not change if we no longer bothered to match up the pairs. One needs to randomise as I previously wrote. That is we randomise B values within A values. Or randomise A values within B values. It may possibly be argued that this is a spurious effect as all the original data are from exactly matched pairs, and we do not know what would have been measured in the real experiment if the pairs had not been matched.

Second way. 2. Assume that the original data are from unmatched pairs in a Bell experiment, based on my method relying on polarisation (which does not need exact matches.)

The randomisation here also does not change the correlation and shows that you can get the correlation from any such ordering of the data. That is what you would expect from a method not relying on exactly matched pairs.

This second way has not been tested by a real experiment so there is no proof that we will get -a.b. It is doubtful that any real experiment historically took any measurements from unmatched pairs?


Oops. Need to scrub that idea as it would require Alice and Bob to know whether an individual measurement is on an electron or is it on a positron. There is no way for them or us to distinguish the two types of particle measurement.
So a real experiment would still need to use exactly matched pairs of measurements, even if retrocausality is assumed.
(My randomisation of B within A was strictly randomising Bob's measurements of electrons within Alice's measurements of positrons. So there is not enough information to carry out this randomisation.)
The retrocausality idea is unaffected, but the data capture of pairs of measurements cannot be simplified.
Austin Fearnley
 

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby Heinera » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:12 am

gill1109 wrote:Maybe someone else here has a favourite standard text book which includes it? Because of Corona I can’t get to a university library right now.

My favourite reference for pretty much anything in quantum foundations is Asher Peres' "Quantum Theory: Concepts and Methods." A google search will point anyone to a downloadable pdf version.

He of course also derives the singlet correlations; see everything leading up to eqn (6.17).
Heinera
 
Posts: 917
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby local » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:09 am

The derivations cited by Gill and Heinera are for the quantum joint prediction. They are not applicable to EPRB. The Graft paper too gives that derivation. But he follows up with a derivation for separated measurements as encountered in space-like separated EPRB. As I said before, Gill is a dilettante in quantum theory (he admits that several times) and does not understand the distinction and continues to bore us with stuff we already know. The difference between joint and separated measurement is a real physical matter and different derivations are required, as Graft clearly showed. At this point, because I have explained this many times, we have to conclude that Gill is being intentionally obtuse and duplicitous about this.
local
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby Joy Christian » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:18 am

local wrote:
The derivations cited by Gill and Heinera are for the quantum joint prediction. They are not applicable to EPRB. The Graft paper too gives that derivation. But he follows up with a derivation for separated measurements as encountered in space-like separated EPRB. As I said before, Gill is a dilettante in quantum theory (he admits that several times) and does not understand the distinction and continues to bore us with stuff we already know. The difference between joint and separated measurement is a real physical matter and different derivations are required, as Graft clearly showed. At this point, because I have explained this many times, we have to conclude that Gill is being intentionally obtuse and duplicitous about this.

I agree with the above comments. This is the reason why I have absolutely no interest in the so-called Gill's theorem or his computer simulation challenge. It is a fraudulent challenge.

***
Joy Christian
Research Physicist
 
Posts: 2793
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:49 am
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Re: Gull and Gill's theory

Postby Heinera » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:29 am

Joy Christian wrote:
local wrote:
The derivations cited by Gill and Heinera are for the quantum joint prediction. They are not applicable to EPRB. The Graft paper too gives that derivation. But he follows up with a derivation for separated measurements as encountered in space-like separated EPRB. As I said before, Gill is a dilettante in quantum theory (he admits that several times) and does not understand the distinction and continues to bore us with stuff we already know. The difference between joint and separated measurement is a real physical matter and different derivations are required, as Graft clearly showed. At this point, because I have explained this many times, we have to conclude that Gill is being intentionally obtuse and duplicitous about this.

I agree with the above comments. This is the reason why I have absolutely no interest in the so-called Gill's theorem or his computer simulation challenge. It is a fraudulent challenge.

***

Uhh. Do you agree with Donald Graft's theory that separated measurements will not produce the cosine correlations?
Heinera
 
Posts: 917
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:50 am

PreviousNext

Return to Sci.Physics.Foundations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 77 guests

cron
CodeCogs - An Open Source Scientific Library