FrediFizzx wrote:Donald Graft will be doing an independent analysis of the raw data from the Delft experiment.
https://pubpeer.com/publications/B74AEB ... 88#fb39529
I suspect that he is "barking up the wrong tree" though in trying to show errors in the experiment.
Heinera wrote:FrediFizzx wrote:Donald Graft will be doing an independent analysis of the raw data from the Delft experiment.
https://pubpeer.com/publications/B74AEB ... 88#fb39529
I suspect that he is "barking up the wrong tree" though in trying to show errors in the experiment.
Donald Graft doesn't believe that experiments can significantly violate 2 for the CHSH-inequality (he thinks experimental violations are due to manipulations of the raw data), so implicitly he doesn't believe in Joy's theory either.
Xray wrote:I see that your paper was posted ahead of the BIG announcement, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... 15759.html (see this too http://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.05949.pdf) to which the following press-release (sourced from, hansonlab.tudelft.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Bell_test_Delft-PressRelease_vOct16.pdf) refers. I have underlined some "scientific statements" that amaze me and would welcome your comments based on your paper. The contact person for the Nature and arxiv papers is Professor Ronald Hanson at r.hanson@tudelft.nl
*** Draft press release for “Loophole-free Bell inequality violation using electron spins separated by 1.3 kilometres” by B. Hensen et al. ***
<BIG SNIP>
Donald Graft doesn't believe that experiments can significantly violate 2 for the CHSH-inequality (he thinks experimental violations are due to manipulations of the raw data), so implicitly he doesn't believe in Joy's theory either.
Don wrote:My work is unique in that I make the following two claims:
1. Quantum mechanics does not predict inequality violation! I don't think Joy holds this view.
2. The experiments when properly designed and analyzed do not violate the inequalities, and therefore they confirm local realism. So, where I seek to show this, Joy appears to accept the experimental violations as valid and seeks to explain them. That is standard thinking in the foundations community. I hope to change that thinking.
Don wrote:Allow me to clarify my thinking about Joy's work, which is perhaps misrepresented above.
Don wrote:In summary, I see Joy's work and my own as complementary and not in conflict. We differ on a few things, but both approaches to show the nonsensical nature of Bell tests are important and valuable.
FrediFizzx wrote:1. Which inequalities? If you are speaking of Bell inequalities, of course QM doesn't predict that as they are mathematically impossible to violate. For EPR-Bohm, QM predicts -a.b and that is all it predicts. Joy's model for EPR-Bohm also predicts -a.b so I believe Joy holds the view that his classical local-realistic model does in fact explain the strong correlation.
2. Again... of course the experiments do not violate Bell inequalities as they are impossible to violate. I believe that Joy accepts that his model matches the prediction of QM and ineed explains it in a classical local-realistic way. All the experiments do is validate that the prediction of QM is correct. Bell's theory has been dead for a long time now so really has nothing to do with this any more. Loopholes are totally gone and don't matter. Bell "tests" are a complete joke and hoax on the physics community.
Don wrote:Thank you for the warm welcome, guys. … … … this is Gordon's thread so we should not hijack it.
Don wrote:Hi Gordon,
Nice to meet you and thanks for the welcome.
I had written above: "Regarding the quantum prediction, -a.b is the quantum joint prediction. It cannot be recovered in an experiment with separated measurements, and reduced density matrices must be used instead of the joint distribution. Refer to http://arxiv.org/abs/1309.1153 and the Conclusion of http://arxiv.org/abs/1409.5158 for a full account of this important distinction." These are the links you need to understand my position. Let me know if anything is unclear or you find it wrong in any way. This error of thinking that a joint distribution can be sampled via marginal measurements is the root of the whole befuddlement over EPRB.
Don wrote:Hi Gordon,
Nice to meet you and thanks for the welcome.
I had written above: "Regarding the quantum prediction, -a.b is the quantum joint prediction. It cannot be recovered in an experiment with separated measurements, and reduced density matrices must be used instead of the joint distribution. Refer to http://arxiv.org/abs/1309.1153 and the Conclusion of http://arxiv.org/abs/1409.5158 for a full account of this important distinction." These are the links you need to understand my position. Let me know if anything is unclear or you find it wrong in any way. This error of thinking that a joint distribution can be sampled via marginal measurements is the root of the whole befuddlement over EPRB.
Don wrote:No time to give you remedial lessons in probability theory.
Gordon Watson wrote:Don wrote:No time to give you remedial lessons in probability theory.
OK. But how about explaining the term: "marginal (separated) measurements"? I've not seen it before.
.
FrediFizzx wrote:Gordon Watson wrote:Don wrote:No time to give you remedial lessons in probability theory.
OK. But how about explaining the term: "marginal (separated) measurements"? I've not seen it before.
.
Hi Gordon,
I suspect it has something to do with the fact that neither QM nor local HV models can get the joint prediction of -a.b using +/- 1 outcomes in R^3. Only non-local hidden variable models can do it for R^3. As Joy has shown, his LHV model can do it in S^3. Don's papers are so wordy, it would be nice if we could just get a simple definition of exactly what he means by "marginal measurements" here.
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