Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Foundations of physics and/or philosophy of physics, and in particular, posts on unresolved or controversial issues

Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:58 pm

Yablon wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
Yablon wrote:Setting a variable to some value. Specifically, in this context, set:



in pertinent functions in which it appears.

Jay

Now put that in the A and B functions and see how silly it looks. Here is a couple of lists of functions. Pick a math function besides limits that might work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _functions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... _functions
.

Any function!

Set the domain to something specific. Therefore obtain something specific for the range.

Set x=2 in y=x^2. Find y=4.

Set x=5 in y=5x. Find y=5x5=25.

Set in . Find

Why make things way more opaque than they need to be?!


Go ahead and put it this function.



Let's see what it looks like.
.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby gill1109 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:13 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:
Yablon wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:We have to use some kind of math function and I can't think of anything better to use. What have you got to use?

Setting a variable to some value. Specifically, in this context, set:



in pertinent functions in which it appears.

Jay

Now put that in the A and B functions and see how silly it looks. Here is a couple of lists of functions. Pick a math function besides limits that might work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _functions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... _functions
.

What you are looking for is in the second Wikipedia reference, "types of functions". What you want is a "second-order function", also known in mathematics as a functional or an operator. It converts one function into another function. "Limit of f as x approaches y" converts a function f (of a free variable x) into a new function f' or Df (of the free variable y).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_function

I think all of you guys would benefit from reading a book on applied category theory. Michel has been recommending the MIT lecture course based on a 50 dollar book whose preprint version is actually on arXiv:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.05316
Seven Sketches in Compositionality: An Invitation to Applied Category Theory
Brendan Fong, David I Spivak

Abstract: This book is an invitation to discover advanced topics in category theory through concrete, real-world examples. It aims to give a tour: a gentle, quick introduction to guide later exploration. The tour takes place over seven sketches, each pairing an evocative application, such as databases, electric circuits, or dynamical systems, with the exploration of a categorical structure, such as adjoint functors, enriched categories, or toposes.
No prior knowledge of category theory is assumed.

A feedback form for typos, comments, questions, and suggestions is available here https://docs.google.com/document/d/160G9OFcP5DWT8Stn7TxdVx83DJnnf7d5GML0_FOD5Wg/edit
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby Yablon » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:19 pm

FrediFizzx wrote:
Go ahead and put it this function.



Let's see what it looks like.

Change “lim” to “set,” then go ahead and set things to what you are saying to set them to. And with bra and ket normalized, you will get just as you intend.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:22 pm

Yablon wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
Go ahead and put it this function.



Let's see what it looks like.

Change “lim” to “set,” then go ahead and set things to what you are saying to set them to. And with bra and ket normalized, you will get just as you intend.

Well, go ahead and do it. You can just copy my tex and do it.
.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:25 pm

gill1109 wrote:What you are looking for is in the second Wikipedia reference, "types of functions". What you want is a "second-order function", also known in mathematics as a functional or an operator. It converts one function into another function. "Limit of f as x approaches y" converts a function f (of a free variable x) into a new function f' or Df (of the free variable y).

All we need is this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _functions

The second entry there . Doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby Joy Christian » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:27 pm

Yablon wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
Go ahead and put it this function.



Let's see what it looks like.

Change “lim” to “set,” then go ahead and set things to what you are saying to set them to. And with bra and ket normalized, you will get just as you intend.

The difference between "set" and "lim" is that the former is a discrete process whereas the latter is a continuous process.

In the GA model, which is based on a classical, continuous geometry, "lim" is more appropriate. "lim" is also more appropriate physically because there are no mysterious discrete jumps in nature. Ultimately the choice between "set" and "lim" is a matter of preference for underlying physics.

***
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby Yablon » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:33 pm

Joy Christian wrote: Ultimately the choice between "set" and "lim" is a matter of preference for underlying physics.

That I can agree with. So if some readers find it more comfortable to think of this as “limit“ that is fine. And if other readers find it better to think of this as “set” that is fine.

I am on the road tomorrow so I don’t expect to be able to post anything further until perhaps late in the evening.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby FrediFizzx » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:38 pm

Yablon wrote:
Joy Christian wrote: Ultimately the choice between "set" and "lim" is a matter of preference for underlying physics.

That I can agree with. So if some readers find it more comfortable to think of this as “limit“ that is fine. And if other readers find it better to think of this as “set” that is fine.

I am on the road tomorrow so I don’t expect to be able to post anything further until perhaps late in the evening.


Well I don't see any \set function in tex so I don't even know how to do "set".
.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:49 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:What you are looking for is in the second Wikipedia reference, "types of functions". What you want is a "second-order function", also known in mathematics as a functional or an operator. It converts one function into another function. "Limit of f as x approaches y" converts a function f (of a free variable x) into a new function f' or Df (of the free variable y).

All we need is this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _functions

The second entry there . Doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
.

That's a theorem, not a definition, Fred. The theorem follows from the epsilon-delta definition of "lim". I think it is about time you familiarise yourself with it. You're never too old to learn! There's no embarrassment in having gaps in one's education. Everyone has lots of gaps.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:57 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
Yablon wrote:
Joy Christian wrote: Ultimately the choice between "set" and "lim" is a matter of preference for underlying physics.

That I can agree with. So if some readers find it more comfortable to think of this as “limit“ that is fine. And if other readers find it better to think of this as “set” that is fine.

I am on the road tomorrow so I don’t expect to be able to post anything further until perhaps late in the evening.


Well I don't see any \set function in tex so I don't even know how to do "set".
.

It's also called "the assignment operator".

You can write it explicitly with "colon equals", as in x:=y. The whole expression stands for the following sequence of steps:

1) *introduce* a new named object, call it "x" (if "x" already exists, it is thrown away together with its contents, and replaced with a new one)
2) *evaluate* the expression "y" getting some *value*
3) put that resulting "value" into "x".

Computer programmers traditionally just used "=" for assignment. It always meant "evaluate the RHS and put it in the LHS".
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:10 am

Joy Christian wrote:
Yablon wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:Go ahead and put it this function.

Let's see what it looks like.

Change “lim” to “set,” then go ahead and set things to what you are saying to set them to. And with bra and ket normalized, you will get just as you intend.

The difference between "set" and "lim" is that the former is a discrete process whereas the latter is a continuous process.
In the GA model, which is based on a classical, continuous geometry, "lim" is more appropriate. "lim" is also more appropriate physically because there are no mysterious discrete jumps in nature. Ultimately the choice between "set" and "lim" is a matter of preference for underlying physics.


"lim" is not a process. It's an operator, and it's definition involves topology. There are discrete topologies and there are continuous topologies. If we write "limit as x tends to a of f(x) equals y" there is implied a space X in which x and a both live and a topology on that space, there is a space Y in which y lives, there is a topology on Y, and there is a function f from X to Y.

A "topology" T on X is just a set T of what are called the "T-open subsets" G of X. T must be closed under arbitrary unions and finite intersections and it must contain the whole space X.

Of course, a "topology" T' on Y is just a set T' of what are called the "T'-open subsets" G' of Y. T' must be closed under arbitrary unions and finite intersections and it must contain the whole space Y.

The definition of "limit as x tends to a of f(x) equals y" is that for every open subset G' of Y which contains a, there exists an open subset G of X containing a such that f(G) is contained in G'.

There is no "process". You may imagine a process, but you are letting your physics imagination run ahead of your formal logical/mathematical foundation, on the top of which you "do" physics.

Maybe that everything would appear to be stated differently nowadays in the language of category theory, but as I understand it, that is just a new and more powerful language, it has not altered the mathematical content - at least, not once one starts applying category theory to "sets". Category theory is about "categories", not about "sets".

Maybe Joy should explore the use of category theory in order to expand the domain of application of his work.
Last edited by gill1109 on Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:12 am

***
Worthless waffle.

***
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:24 am

Joy Christian wrote:***
Worthless waffle.

***

That's the kind of remark that an ignorant person can be expected to make! (I am not saying that you are ignorant. You express your heart-felt feelings. No problem with that, obviously)

By the way, responding to a comment on another thread:

Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:We don't have to do an experimental simulation to validate the math.
.

My point is this: All evidence indicates that your math doesn't convince anyone. A successful simulation would.

Nothing would convince a diehard Bell-believer, because a belief in Bell's demonstrably false claim is a belief, not science.


I believe that the disbelief of a diehard Bell-detractor is also a belief, not science.

But enough of this amusing banter. We are here to do science! Controversy and disagreement are great motors of great science. And science is a human activity and we're human and we are driven by emotions. So let's just continue to agree to disagree.

So you think that Michel's recent posts on category theory are also worthless waffle? And you are not willing to write out a formal mathematical definition of "limit" as you understand it? Is all of formal logic also just "worthless waffle"? (It's a legitimate point of view ... but then I would say that also written words are just "worthless waffle". Many so-called great philosophers would agree. The second Wittgenstein for instance. Probably, I think, Siddhārtha Gautama too).
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:02 am

gill1109 wrote:
I believe that the disbelief of a diehard Bell-detractor is also a belief, not science.

The burden of proof of Bell's outrageous claim is on Bell and his followers. But to date, no flawless proof of Bell's claim exists (for details, see my paper https://arxiv.org/abs/1704.02876).

Why should any Bell-denier believe in a statement of faith? If I were to believe in something without proof, then there are better options out there offering enlightenment and salvation.

***
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby Heinera » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:04 am

Yablon wrote:Bell's equation (9) is at https://cds.cern.ch/record/111654/files ... 00_001.pdf. His equation (9) for Alice is:

,

and his is the same as which Fred has been using in his posts. The transformation:

(1)

which I posted has some similarities but it conveys different information.
[...]

Jay


The reason I brought up Bell's (9) is that in (10) he shows that this approach won't reproduce the quantum correlations. Peres elaborates a bit on this.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby Joy Christian » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:07 am

Heinera wrote:
The reason I brought up Bell's (9) is that in (10) he shows that this approach won't reproduce the quantum correlations. Peres elaborates a bit on this.

Does Bell or Peres pay any attention to the geometry and topology of the physical space in which we are confined to perform all our experiments?

No, they don't.

Therefore their claims have little or no physical value.

***
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:53 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:What you are looking for is in the second Wikipedia reference, "types of functions". What you want is a "second-order function", also known in mathematics as a functional or an operator. It converts one function into another function. "Limit of f as x approaches y" converts a function f (of a free variable x) into a new function f' or Df (of the free variable y).

All we need is this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _functions

The second entry there . Doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
.

That's a theorem, not a definition, Fred. The theorem follows from the epsilon-delta definition of "lim". I think it is about time you familiarise yourself with it. You're never too old to learn! There's no embarrassment in having gaps in one's education. Everyone has lots of gaps.

I learned the definition of limits over 50 years ago in high school; advanced high school math class for calculus. I lucked out as it was the first year they offered the class for my senior year. My math teacher automatically put me in it. But that doesn't change anything. So what are you saying? Are you saying that



Is not true? :mrgreen:
.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:19 am

FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:What you are looking for is in the second Wikipedia reference, "types of functions". What you want is a "second-order function", also known in mathematics as a functional or an operator. It converts one function into another function. "Limit of f as x approaches y" converts a function f (of a free variable x) into a new function f' or Df (of the free variable y).

All we need is this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _functions

The second entry there . Doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
.

That's a theorem, not a definition, Fred. The theorem follows from the epsilon-delta definition of "lim". I think it is about time you familiarise yourself with it. You're never too old to learn! There's no embarrassment in having gaps in one's education. Everyone has lots of gaps.

I learned the definition of limits over 50 years ago in high school; advanced high school math class for calculus. But that doesn't change anything. So what are you saying? Are you saying that



Is not true? :mrgreen:
.

I'm very glad you had seen it before because I was beginning to doubt that! (And had Joy seen it before, too?)

I agreed that the equation you wrote was true. I said that it is a *theorem*, not a *definition*.

*You* were looking for *definitions* of your unconventional limit expressions, remember? You came up with some lists on Wikipedia. I told you that you needed notation for *assignment*, not for *limit*.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby gill1109 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:25 am

Joy Christian wrote:
Heinera wrote:
The reason I brought up Bell's (9) is that in (10) he shows that this approach won't reproduce the quantum correlations. Peres elaborates a bit on this.

Does Bell or Peres pay any attention to the geometry and topology of the physical space in which we are confined to perform all our experiments?

No, they don't.

Therefore their claims have little or no physical value.

***

Bell and Peres and others explain very clearly why the geometry and topology of the physical space in which we are confined to perform our experiments play no role whatsoever. Because Bell's argument relies only on basic notations of causality, which themselves only use the most basic features of our understanding of space and time.
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Re: Quantum Mechanics with HV is Local!

Postby FrediFizzx » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:26 am

gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:
gill1109 wrote:
FrediFizzx wrote:...
All we need is this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _functions

The second entry there . Doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
.

That's a theorem, not a definition, Fred. The theorem follows from the epsilon-delta definition of "lim". I think it is about time you familiarise yourself with it. You're never too old to learn! There's no embarrassment in having gaps in one's education. Everyone has lots of gaps.

I learned the definition of limits over 50 years ago in high school; advanced high school math class for calculus. But that doesn't change anything. So what are you saying? Are you saying that



Is not true? :mrgreen:
.

I'm very glad you had seen it before because I was beginning to doubt that! (And had Joy seen it before, too?)

I agreed that the equation you wrote was true. I said that it is a *theorem*, not a *definition*.

*You* were looking for *definitions* of your unconventional limit expressions, remember? You came up with some lists on Wikipedia. I told you that you needed notation for *assignment*, not for *limit*.

Well, if is true, then the limit expressions we use are not unconventional are they? We are sticking with the limits. It is the most simple cleanest way of expressing the physics.
.
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